Determinism & Apocolypse: the Grim Irony of Our Fortunate Fall

[Joseph Tracy]

Another difference is the centrality in Calvinism of a properly  
interpreted( by patriarchal systems) text. It is fundamentally  
literalist, the notion that we have a transcription of God's messages  
in a set of books. The approved precepts have a kind of mathematical  
logic.  Though the will of God as far as individual salvation is  
hidden and  and unprovable by human means, it is fundamentally  
mechanistic and predetermined and described by conformity with  
certain evidence. There is a real connection here to the scientific  
method.  Calvinism is really closer to Pavlovian determinism or  
Newtonian Physics than gnosticism.  The gnostic vision relies on a  
transcendent mystical vision or unity with the hidden truth. It has  
texts , but they are not literal. Liberation is not fundamentally  
preceptual or limited by dogma, but experiential, internal.  It works  
more by Koan than reliable formulas or creeds.

The creation difference is enough for me to find no meaningful  
connection (Calvinist theology  makes creation the work of The one  
and only creator God, and casts evil as rebellion and subversion of  
divine will. Gnosticism  has a demigod with creative powers who  
creates a physical world which obscures the spiritual universe-  
that's a big fucking difference )other than what I mentioned before,  
that both stem from an agonistic vision of the cosmos.

Immanentizing the world is just another way of referring to an almost  
universal religious experience of death and rebirth, both of cosmos  
and self. It is not in any way unique to Calvinism or Gnosticism.

There are definite overlaps here. Kind of like this:  A square,  
circle,  equilateral triangle,  rhombus are all shapes.  An  
equilateral  triangle and square have several similar properties:  
straight edges,  identically angled corners,  geometric and  
mathematical means for determining central point, area etc.  They  
have similar origins but are also utterly distinct. Conflation seems  
more muddying than illuminating, unless you go back to the unifying  
category of geometric shapes.  Otherwise it is the differences and  
not the similarities that are worthy of attention.

On Oct 2, 2009, at 11:51 AM, David Morris wrote:

> I think that there are two very different ways that Calvinism (with
> the inclusion of Voegelin's focus on Puritanism)  and Gnosticism can
> be compared:
>
> 1.  First similarity:  Alienation from the World:  Both believe that
> the world we inhabit is inherently evil, or at least deeply flawed,
> and seek a way to escape it:
>
> The Gnostic world is the creation of an identity called the
> "Demiurge," essentially a rebellious (or merely ignorant) spirit who
> created the present world, entrapping the divine within a flawed
> materiality.
>
> Calvinist believe that this world, though created by the true God, has
> fallen into the possession/rulership of Satan by way of the
> disobedience of Adam & Eve, and that ever since the fall of man all of
> creation is plagued by death and inherent sin.
>
> The difference between the two is the means of escape from this
> inherently evil world.  Gnostic's think they can get back to the pure
> God through "gnosis," which usually involves meditation and some form
> of withdrawal from the world.  Calvinists (but more accurately
> Protestants) believe faith in Jesus Christ gives salvation which will
> be realized with the end of this world and the return of Christ.
>
> 2.  Second similarity (only if you focus on Puritanism):
> Immanentizing the eschaton (thanks to Alice's posts)
>
> "Immanentizing the eschaton" means "bringing forth from within the end
> of the world."
>
> Or as the late WF Buckley defined it "“Eschaton means, roughly, the
> final things in the order of time; immanentize means, roughly, to
> cause to inhere in time. So that to immanentize the eschaton is to
> cause to inhere in the worldly experience and subject to human
> dominion that which is beyond time and therefore extraworldly. To
> attempt such a thing is to deny the transcendence of God; to assume
> that Utopia is for this world.”
>
> Gnostics believe this is possible (in a purely personal way) through
> gnosis, noted above.
>
> Puritans didn't literally believe in  "Immanentizing the eschaton,"
> but by separating themselves and attempting to live personal lives
> which manifested their internally purified souls, it could be said
> they were attempting to do so.
>
> In GR the Calvinist concept of predestination is spun on its head in
> order to focus on the doomed and their place in this inherently evil
> world.
>
> David Morris
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> I can  see Pynchon's gnosticism or how that tradition could be  
>> applied to him( it's not a tight fit as for P Dick or Elrond  
>> Hubbard), but I don't see much correlation of gnosticism to  
>> Calvinism. Calvinism is identity based and
>  Gnosticism is knowledge based. Calvinism is aggressively
> proselytizing, Gnosticism more like a secret club of those who know.
> Clavinism sees history and authorities as ordained by God, Gnosticim
> sees history and authorities as under the control of the demiGod. What
> you are left with is the spirit/flesh division. The philosophy there
> is similar, but plays out differently with Calvinists seeking to
> repress and control the flesh through judgemental institutions and
> harsh law and gnostics making it a matter of personal discipline and
> spiritual advancement.
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:13 AM, David Morris wrote:
>>
>>> But the essence of Gnosticism and its relation to Calvinism is in  
>>> both of their theologies, and specifically their understanding of  
>>> the spiritual origins of the cosmos in relation to its present  
>>> state, and how to escape it.