Nazi Jews

[tbeshear]

I generally agree with Laura's observations.
I think IB is one of the year's best movies (of what I've seen, natch), and 
probably QT's masterpiece. That said, it's a "war" movie, not a war movie; 
it's a movie about movies, it's a series of set pieces -- almost individual 
short films, it's an alt history, it's an exercise in how far QT can stretch 
tension before releasing. Hitchcock would have loved it. It's remarkable but 
it's not about the real world.

Now, Come and See -- I got that from Netflix and watched it last week. It's 
a masterpiece too, though I think the word "masterpiece" might cheapen what 
it is. That word is too glib. I almost hate to mention it in same breath as 
IB because IB is a fantasia, while Come and See is harsh harsh reality (with 
touches of surrealism). I hated watching it at points, but I couldn't tear 
myself away. The burning of the village and the scene of the gang-rape 
victim are among the most haunting images I've ever seen in a movie. I 
thought of IB and its alt-history premise while watching the scene where our 
young protagonist shoots a poster of Hitler (the Liberator) and we see all 
that Nazi newsreel footage running in reverse. It also reminded me of Martin 
Amis' Time's Arrow. (Kill all the Gnat-sees you can, QT & Co.)
I'm 50, and I didn't think at my age that I could be affected as deeply by a 
piece of art as Come and See affected me. Thank God I can still be shaken 
that much.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <kelber at mindspring.com>
To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: Nazi Jews


> SPOILERS
>
> I honestly can't understand how a fantasy about some Jews killing Hitler 
> and the high command of the Nazi Party and SS makes those Jews no 
> different from Nazis.  The character Shoshanna saw her whole family 
> slaughtered by the Nazis.  Would there be something wrong or immoral about 
> her killing Hitler if she actually got the chance?  I'm also not clear if 
> you're offended because it's Jews doing the killing.  Would you be 
> offended if some members of the French Resistance were in that position? 
> Why do you expect Israel specifically to condemn the movie?  I'm not being 
> rhetorical here.  I really don't understand.
>
> The Brad Pitt character who heads the commando unit isn't Jewish.  He's a 
> shit-kicking redneck bigot type.  Clearly, when he's talking about Nazis, 
> we're meant to plug in a different N word.  The film isn't a Jewish 
> revenge fantasy so much as it's a send-up of American racism, IMO.  The 
> guessing-game sequence where the Nazi is trying to guess "King Kong," but 
> thinks the real answer might be "the history of the American Negro," was a 
> brilliant scene.  Scary, witty and full of subtext about the connections 
> between Nazism and American racism.  It reminded me of the propaganda film 
> sequence in GR.
>
> Outside of Pulp Fiction, I've never been interested in any of QT's movies. 
> Most of them look pretty crappy.  And by all accounts, he's an arrogant 
> fuck.  But unless something really great comes out in the next couple of 
> months (The Road?), IB's in position to do well at the Oscars.  I don't 
> have a problem with that.
>
> Laura
>
> PS- Personally, I'm a lot more offended by the thought of Jews like Mickey 
> who admire Nazis.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
>
>>
>>there is a bit of difference--Mickey and Bernstein are Jews who
>>somehow inexplicably identify with National Socialism (remember those
>>groups of men waiting in camps for the return of
>>Blicero--inexplicable)
>>the IB Jews (Americans) are committing war crimes in the movie--they
>>are behaving like any other individual in history that has committed
>>such crimes.
>>That they replicate in detail some of the same acts of cruelty on
>>German soldiers that the Jews (and others) were subject to during the
>>war doesn't make me feel any less appalled, even if it is only a
>>movie--in that sense they are Nazis. No one seems to have a problem
>>with that--no condemnations from the US Army, in Israel, even in
>>Germany.
>>QT if he had any talent would've put these GIs in Vietnam committing
>>these crimes--change the focus just a tiny bit--i see no
>>difference--mass murder is mass murder tho all these jackoffs in tis
>>country, critics and other blowhards would see the difference, those
>>cheering for their heroes.
>>
>>rich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 9/17/09, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:03 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hard not to bring up Inglourious Basterds, which some (not me) have
>>>> decried as portraying Jews behaving like Nazis.
>>>
>>> I'm curious as to what anyone who's seen it might have to say about it 
>>> ...
>>>
>