The WreckIgnitions Read. Snarky question

Sat Apr 9 18:00:05 CDT 2011

gaddis is a very dry martini; pynchon is a tab of windowpane.

p.s. there is plenty of slapstick in Gaddis too, but it is not as cartoonish
as what you get in TRP. this is mostly a function of their age and their
interests; Gaddis likes opera and arcane religious texts, TRP likes the
tarot and comic books.

that said, I would argue that TRP is higherbrow than Gaddis, because TRP's
aim is to elevate the ordinary, while WG's is to deflate the elite.

these are all broad generalizations, easily refuted with specific textual
moments, but they are my overall takeaway.

plus WG didn't write any "entertainments," unlike TRP (yes, I am snooty
enough to prefer V., GR and M&D; to have a soft spot for TCOL49, and to be
unappreciative of Vineland and Inherent Vice. AtD is still under assessment;
it seems likely to make my cut (la di dah! i'm sure Pynchon will be happy to
hear it...))

On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>wrote:

> The Wiki post of sarcasm is consistent with the definition my Eng 102
> prof gave lo, those eons ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
> That also fits with what I have read of Gaddis (Agape Agape). He seems
> to intend to rip flesh with his humor. It seems aimed at causing a
> smart. We grin in self-recognition, and maybe feel a little guilty, or
> even a bit ashamed at our passivity, despair.
>
> And Pynchon seems to me often to go over into slapstick, which is
> certainly hyperbolic--to the point that the smart of the bite is lost
> somewhat in the guffaws it arouses. I think of Buster Keaton, the 3
> Stooges, and Charlie Chaplin at times in Pynchon's lampoons. They
> point to our frailties, extravagances, and absurd denial in such a way
> that we can laugh without recognizing that we are laughing at
> ourselves. At other times, though, he sends a dart right into the
> heart of the matter with such accuracy that I am powerless against the
> impulse to act upon my own convictions. Against the Day seems richest
> in those last.
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Richard Ryan <himself at richardryan.com>
> wrote:
> > I think of sarcasm as the hyperbolic expression of an emotional or
> > mental state to achieve ironic or deflationary effect. And since
> > Gaddis's tone is not exaggerated - rather it's caustic and droll - I'm
> > not sure I'd agree with the ascription of sarcasm to this work.
> >
> > The big news here is that Gaddis has style and tone of humor which is
> > distinctive and dramatic enough that I find he clearly earns his own
> > adjective - Gaddisian - in the same way that Pynchon has by the power
> > of his style and voice created his own "brand."
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >> And, since I probably was not clear, that superiority that
> generates sarcasm
> >> is the narrator----Can't yet call him Gaddis hisself but a close
> relative, so to
> >> speak,
> >> I'd think......
> >>
> >> I am still surprised by the seemingly omniscient narrator....expecting
> >> much more the limited omniscience of many novelists...like TRP, others
> of HIS
> >> time and since....from The Good Soldier
> >> even Hank James was not always so omniscient....
> >>
> >> In a way, The Recognitions is narrated like an old-fashioned 19th
> Century novel
> >> yet is not even close to the most famous beyond that....................
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> >> To: Richard Ryan <himself at richardryan.com>
> >> Cc: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >> Sent: Sat, April 9, 2011 10:55:28 AM
> >> Subject: Re: The WreckIgnitions Read. Snarky question
> >>
> >> A--and, much more sarcasm in Gaddis?....good, bad, neither (just
> different)?
> >>
> >>
> >> Sarcasm in general---true here?---comes from what some might call more
> arrogance
> >> than playfulness........narrator writes from a higher plane of
> superiority than
> >> V. ever
> >> inhabits, yes?.....and even GR? Gaddis is more Swiftian in his
> savageness than
> >> Pynchon----but Pynchon imagines over-the-top more like Swift. (What he
> sez
> >> surrealism
> >> might have opened him to...conceits like a game of extreme metaphor)
> >>
> >> Which, again---choose C above---just says something about the
> overwhelmingness
> >> on Gaddis vision herein, yes? Dark as a lie.....He KNOWS faking it is
> >> everywhere.......
> >> For him the famous line might be: "The tower is nowhere"....?
> >>
> >> Pynchon on the page, although also a dramatically dark vision of History
> and
> >> America in V......and GR.......
> >>
> >> laughs more?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Richard Ryan <himself at richardryan.com>
> >> To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> >> Cc: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>; pov at ix.netcom.com
> >> Sent: Sat, April 9, 2011 10:35:35 AM
> >> Subject: Re: The WreckIgnitions Read. Snarky question
> >>
> >> Concur.  Gaddis: dry, wry.  Pynchon: boisterous, sometime (to his
> >> cost) buffoonish.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >>> Gaddis, Pynchon, both 'comic' writers--as Erik Burns has helped
> me--us?--focus
> >>> on.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> But Gaddis's wit, so laconic via the narrator, as They say of English
> wit is
> >>> much
> >>> more what we have come to label snarky than Pynchon's
> >>>
> >>> Which is, often simply juvenile and otherwise just Falstaff-exuberant
> on the
> >>> page.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes? Discuss among ourselves.....
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Richard Ryan
> >> New York and the World
> >> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> >> Come see VTM's new production!
> >> www.kingstheplay.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Ryan
> > New York and the World
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> > Come see VTM's new production!
> > www.kingstheplay.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
> creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
> trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
> of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
> than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant
>
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