TRTR(I.3) Hidden Profits [Epigraph]

[Paul Mackin]

On 4/29/2011 8:11 PM, Mark Kohut wrote:
> Well, I do not think I am ever going to believe that (most great) art isn't
> good at morality....to go deep, deep into life is to be moral, human-centered,
> often beyond good and evil, etc., etc. but deeply moral----although often
> so hard to 'get' and often-----infused with the writer's 'original' [sic]
> insights.
>
In the Clementine view man seeks the good,  serious novelist are men (or 
women), therefore serious fiction seeks good and is in some way on the 
side of virtue.

  Maybe it's a case, in modern serious fiction, that morality is paid 
obeisance,  not by its presence, but by its absence. (presence of an 
absence)

Or, what it may amount to is our changing view of what constitutes an 
adequate morality.

In Trilling's view, the older moral virtue of sincerity (the "to thine 
own self be true" sort of thing) has been replaced by a new and improved 
version, which he labels authenticity.

I don't want to type out a long quote (which anyway would be inadequate 
to do justice to T's ideas), but the general idea is that, with our 
changing notions of the self (Freud etc),  much that formerly was seen 
as relevant to morality is now seen as of little account. If the "self" 
is in question, what does being true to it even mean?  And as a 
replacement for the old, much that was traditionally condemned is 
accorded considerable moral authority, examples being  violence, 
disorder, and unreason.  (this is an inadequate description but I hope 
it conveys something)

Probably the turmoil Wyatt seems always to be in is an example of 
authenticity.

P

> But, to write moralistically, as with Rand and many, many others..is
> not to write art..................
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Morris<fqmorris at gmail.com>
> To: Paul Mackin<mackin.paul at verizon.net>
> Cc: Erik T. Burns<eburns at gmail.com>; "pynchon-l at waste.org"
> <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Sent: Fri, April 29, 2011 7:10:38 PM
> Subject: Re: TRTR(I.3) Hidden Profits [Epigraph]
>
> Characters have attitudes, as do authors. Behavior isn't the issue.
> Art isn't good at morality, but is at confrontation, but only if
> self-aware. Think Ayn Rand- no sense of humor, or awareness of her own
> foibles.
>
> Gaddis has a penchant for micro vignettes that invite quick
> judgements. He wants us to be judgmental. Not that he's being serious,
> but jokes have roots in sincerity.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Friday, April 29, 2011, Paul Mackin<mackin.paul at verizon.net>  wrote:
>> On 4/29/2011 4:55 PM, Erik T. Burns wrote:
>>
>> Even a symptom in us all...
>>
>> which the better educated among us have learned to suppress.  But which group
>> is more authentic?
>>
>> In real life the educated approach seems to be the better way.  To put it
>> mildly.
>>
>> In books it's better to let all hang out.
>>
>> P
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 29/04/2011, at 21:00, Richard Ryan<himself at richardryan.com>    wrote:
>>
>>
>> The homophobia in Gaddis may be like the misogyny in Pynchon; partly a
>> symptom of the times, partly a symptom in the author.
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Paul Mackin<mackin.paul at verizon.net>    wrote:
>>
>> On 4/29/2011 1:46 PM, David Morris wrote:
>>
>> It was the overly-stereotypical dialogue of the various members of the
>> NYC (what I call) Whole Sick Crew that put me off last time I read TR.
>>     It's got to be satire, but not necessarily friendly satire.  It seems
>> very likely to me that V's Whole Sick Crew was inspired by this one in
>> TR.  And TRP's depiction of homosexuality in GR isn't too friendly
>> either.  I think men in their eras were a lot less at ease with
>> homosexuality in general
>>
>>
>> Is it a good idea, though, to judge art (in this case literary writing) on
>> the basis of fairness to minorities, or majorities for that matter?
>>
>> In discussions of TR the word authenticity is often in the fore.  Mark
>> alluded to Trilling's Sincerity and Authenticity.   It's more than just that
>> art isn't meant to teach good behavior.  It's that art itself is not good
>> behavior.  In fact it is almost certainly bad behavior.  (in a manner of
>> speaking) Bad behavior can hurt.
>>
>> The good news is we can appreciate it without having to act it out.  Or
>> bring it home to the children.
>>
>> In life it's a good idea not to be too authentic.
>>
>> That's  the way I see it.  (not everyone does)
>>
>> P
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 PM, rich<richard.romeo at gmail.com>     wrote:
>>
>> if only to play up those who aren't what they seem. if memory serves,
>> The Swede is married but is a flamer
>>
>> but it's so clearly satirical--it doesn't seem malicious on gaddis' part
>> (i.e. its what these people do that Gaddis mocks not who they are) at least
>> thats how I see it
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard Ryan
>> New York and the World
>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>> Thanks to all who saw VTM's new production!
>> "Brilliant!";"Superb!" - NYTheatre-wire.com
>> www.kingstheplay.com
>>
>>
>>