Pynchon and Roth

Thu May 12 16:17:12 CDT 2011

A fine assay on Roth's Postmodern Jewish fiction. Also, I would add
that Roth, like Barthelme, but for a very different reason, took the
writer and writing itself as his subject. For all the talk of
Pynchon's self-conscious works, there is very little of the
self-conscious in Pynchon--most of it is in GR.

Postmodern Jewish Identity in Philip Roth’s The Counterlifeby Derek
Royal | Papers by Derek
Modern Fiction Studies 48.2 (2002):  422-43.

http://unk.academia.edu/DerekRoyal/Papers/157626/Postmodern_Jewish_Identity_in_Philip_Roths_The_Counterlife

On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 12:28 PM, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
> that Roth doesn't "reach for the stars", just explores the moral (dis) order
> within (America)---Kant allusion---
> is maybe why he hasn't won the Big One?   THEY like that over
> there.............
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>
> To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>; pynchon-l at waste.org
> Sent: Thu, May 12, 2011 12:12:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Pynchon and Roth
>
> On 5/12/2011 10:54 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>
> I just thought of something.  What would it be like if an author with Roth's
> writing style were to narrate the story of Slothrup, Blicero, Katje, et al.
>   Unimaginable.
>
> there is Sabbath's Theater....
>
> Sabbath and Blicero are alike in that neither makes compromises in their
> search for authenticity.
>
> Of course, Sabbath's unbending trajectory to destruction leaves no space for
> reading Rilke.
>
> Not that Sabbath couldn't have been made to reach for the stars.
>
> But would reaching for the stars be a good fit for Roth?
>
> I don't know.
>
> p
>
> P
>
>
> AsB4,
> ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
> Henry Mu
> http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 5:34 PM, alice wellintown wrote:
>>
>> Two good descriptions of PR.  His sentneces are clean and tight. He
>> knows how to write. His stories don't lock me in. Mostly Jewish Jersey
>> Fair.  Pynchon's a word master. Roth is one of the best best sellers
>> on the market. We might Compare Apples and Orange Acid.
>>
>> Roth makes good use of a sentence. Utilitarian is the wrong word for
>> his language skill. He drives. Pynchon flies.
>>
>> On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM,  <malignd at aol.com> wrote:
>> > Utilitarian?  It may not be self-consciously poetic but it's masterful.
>> >  It
>> > has tremendous rhythm and drive and propulsive energy.  It never sags,
>> > not
>> > for a sentence.  He locks me in quicker than any writer I can name.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>
>> > To: Kai Frederik Lorentzen <lorentzen at hotmail.de>; pynchon-l
>> > <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> > Sent: Wed, May 11, 2011 5:08 am
>> > Subject: Re: Pynchon and Roth
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes, with Roth the language is simple and straightforward.  You never
>> > have
>> > to consciously pause and ask yourself why did he chose that particular
>> > word
>> > or image.   The  language is utilitarian, a means to an end. It's what
>> > the
>> > words relate that is important. With Pynchon language is all.  The
>> > genius is
>> > not is what he says, which often can't quite be parsed,  but how he says
>> > it.
>> >
>> > P
>> >
>> >
>> > On 5/11/2011 6:45 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen wrote:
>> >
>> > On 08.05.2011 16:49, Paul Mackin wrote:
>> >
>> > I like Philip Roth.  He's funny, which is pleasurable, and there is
>> > constant
>> > struggle with social forces, his family, his women, etc.
>> >
>> > The good thing about Philip Roth for the non-native speaker/reader is,
>> > that
>> > the books are written in an easy way. Sure, there is 'frames in frames'
>> > and
>> > other pomo sophistication. But on the level of vocabulary and
>> > sentence-construction you always catch it right away. That's different
>> > with
>> > Pynchon's books, which also have a wider spectrum of leitmotifs. Philip
>> > Roth
>> > is always primarily writing about Philip Roth. Actually I haven't read
>> > him
>> > lately, but I remember "The Counterlife" and "Operation Shylock" very
>> > well.
>> > Both part of my personal canon. Perhaps this is because these books
>> > leave
>> > the relatively small social life-world of the upper intellectual middle
>> > class of New Jersey. There's more of the not so "funny" world in it, but
>> > it's still that "pleasurable" straightforward style. And Roth is writing
>> > excellent dialogue. Better than Pynchon, no doubt. But Pynchon, who has
>> > no
>> > talent for clarity, is imo the far more poetic prose-writer. Pynchon can
>> > evoke goose-flesh and hyperventilation. He's channeling the Orphic
>> > stream
>> > ...
>> >
>> > KFL
>> >
>> > PS: Of course this doesn't mean that Tom can't be funny -- "'And
>> > considered
>> > subjectively,' added Dr. V. Ganesh Rao of the Calcutta University, 'as
>> > an
>> > act of becoming longer or shorter, while at the same time turning, among
>> > axis whose unit vector is not familiar and comforting 'one' but the
>> > altogether disquieting square root minus one. If you were a vector,
>> > mademoiselle, you would begin in the 'real' world, change your length,
>> > enter
>> > an 'imaginary' reference system, rotate up to three different ways, and
>> > return to 'reality' a new person. Or vector.'/'Fascinating. But ...
>> > human
>> > beings aren't vectors. Are they?'/'Arguable, young lady. As a matter of
>> > fact, in India, the Quaternions are now the basis of a modern school of
>> > Yoga, a discipline which has always relied on such operations as
>> > stretching
>> > and turning. Here in the traditional 'Triangle Asana', for example' ---
>> > he
>> > stood and demonstrated --- 'the geometry is fairly straightforward. But
>> > soon
>> > one moves on to more advanced forms, into the complex spaces of the
>> > Quaternions ...' He shifted a few dishes, climbed on the table,
>> > announced
>> > 'The Quadrantal Versor Asana,' and commenced a routine which quickly
>> > became
>> > more contortionistic and now and then you'd say contrary-to-fact,
>> > drawing
>> > the attention of other diners and eventually the maître d', who came
>> > running
>> > over waving a vehement finger and was two steps away from the table when
>> > Dr.
>> > Rao abruptly vanished" (Against the Day, p. 539). Oh Logik des
>> > Verschwindens!
>
>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not sure sure I wouldn't quite enjoy a books full of Blicero.  He
>> > was a
>> > pretty marvelous creation.
>> >
>> > P
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>