NP - And Greece created Europe: the cultural legacy of a nation in crisis

[Joe Allonby]

Thank you for doing that.


On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 5:19 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Ian and Michael.  I have to say that the worst part was the desolate boredom (and I was in a holding pen with anywhere from 10-22 people at various times).  Conversations don't take up that much time.  We attempted a game of charades at one point.  I slept for maybe two hours (on the dirty floor, with my jacket as a pillow), but other than that, there was absolutely nothing to pass the time.  I've always thought of myself as someone who could (and usually does) occupy myself with daydreams and reverie - but it didn't work at all in that environment. I actually felt myself panicking at various points, because I was afraid I was going to "snap," and I didn't know what sort of behavior that would entail, or what the repercussions would be.
>
> There was a teenaged girl who'd been arrested for talking back to a cop (harassing black teenagers being a blood sport for NYC cops), and she was frightened and crying for her mother.  So I comforted her as much as I could, and that made me feel stronger.  She was still there when I was sprung, and her chances of getting out that night were slim, so I gave her my watch as a good luck charm.  There was nothing else I could do for her.
>
> LK
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>Sent: Nov 17, 2011 4:47 PM
>>To: kelber at mindspring.com
>>Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>Subject: Re: NP - And Greece created Europe: the cultural legacy of a nation in crisis
>>
>>Way to go, Laura! You continue to be one of my heroes. Thank you for
>>your sacrifice to your country and your fellow workers.
>>
>>There is an unfortunate impetus to lay all the follies of modern
>>capitalism at the door of the petrochemical industry, but the fact is
>>that the wealthy few have antagonized and alienated the working
>>classes since the before the beginning of capitalism and that is a
>>barely changed reality over the centuries. Petrodollars are new to the
>>game, but certainly are doing the greatest damage overall right now.
>>There are several alternatives to oil in the mix now, though. Hydrogen
>>is nearly happening, e.g. Even if the petro world collapses, there
>>will remain pockets of civilized structure and potential development
>>in the world. There is much to dread, and some to anticipate with
>>nothing less than an open-book attitude, i.e., if the future is an
>>open book, it behooves us to keep the book open. Meanwhile, I hope
>>those who have access to the municipal centers especially keep up the
>>good fight to cut off the sickness, and work to redirect the impetus
>>of human development in whatever ways we all can so do.
>>
>>On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 1:17 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> I agree, Joseph, that the world is in for a desolate few hundred years, as nation states fall, and Global Corporate Giants duke it out over control of diminishing resources (like oil and clean water).  There will be the Haves (people living comfortably within Global Corporate spheres of influence)and the Have-nots (people currently living in the poorer areas of Europe and Asia, most of central Africa, the rust belt and Plains areas of the US) who are at the mercy of war lords and drug lords and only occasionally some sort of makeshift democratic and/or anarchistic state).
>>>
>>> OK, admittedly this is just my own half-baked theory, but it seems consistent with the trend.  I just spent 31 hours in police custody after getting arrested for trespassing at an Occupy Wall Street event, and it did make me realize that certain aspects of the nation-state, such as military/prison/surveillance are of use to the corporate powers-that-be and could be retained long after other government functions have withered away.
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>Sent: Nov 17, 2011 3:56 PM
>>>>To: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>>>Subject: Re: NP - And Greece created Europe: the cultural legacy of a nation in crisis
>>>>
>>>> I picked up on this thread because I was enjoying the many  sharp thoughts.  I think we both see the conundrum here where if the Euro zone project trumps democratic process and imposes leadership on debtor countries, it is also democracy at stake. Should nations really be privately owned and managed for international corporate profit? And  behind the Euro vail it looks to many like the big banks who are pressuring the Euro-union taxpayers who have been frugal and realistic to insure the bad debt of banks and governments which have not..  As far as the US rich states and poor, I don't think that argument is comparable on several levels, and question the core premise.
>>>>
>>>>As far as the rest of the world being hurt, I just think the hurt of the world is a done deal: oceans fished out, growing contamination of water,  infrastructure and food supply dependence on fossil fuels, massive climate change, and large scale international financial fraud, growing wealth divide, 7 billion and exponentially growing . The opportunities for corporate profits are diminished and bloody. And what has been built with all that money is a giant machine for burning fossil fuel.   The dream of propping up the current system without deep structural changes is a delusion that is pointing toward a fork in the road. And as  a famous Yogi said, "When you see a fork in the road, take it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:44 AM, David Morris wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The thing is there is no option of "fixing" this mess. A large transition is overdue and inevitable..Why be afraid of letting the big banks die? The sooner people face the future without dragon lairs in their dreams the better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, it's the Euro that's at stake here more than some big banks.
>>>>> And if Europe's economy tail-dives, the rest of the world will also be
>>>>> hurt.  The problem in Yurp is political at its base:  Yurp wanted a
>>>>> common currenct,butisn't willing to act for a common good.  In the US
>>>>> rich states routine subsidize poor states through Federal taxes, and
>>>>> no one feels abused.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>"Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
>>creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
>>trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
>>of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
>>than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant
>
>