frank miller

[Ian Livingston]

I must say, Mr. F, you do sound as if you are resigned to the status
quo and encourage such resignation among others. There are a lot of
folks on your bandwagon, you don't see them everywhere. I am
unfortunately one of the serfs working off the debts I incurred before
my career fell under the plutes axes, so I cannot be on the street
right now, but I do support all those who are standing, sitting,
camping for, and teaching change in these times. It is difficult for
many people to catch the drift of a pluralistic rebellion, that
doesn't mean those engaged are acting randomly. If you see
self-centrism, perhaps, like others pointing fingers, what you see is
not a characteristic of the folks you are pointing at when you say
they behave in selfish ("cake") manner.

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> Yes Michael, of course I know who you are, we are often uncannily similar in our takes on Pynchon's writing. You've got me right in many ways.  I  really mean it when I say I respect your list. I made a similar list in response to something Chris Hedges wrote.  I do bounce back and forth in my thoughts on these things trying to get at something that holds water for my critical mind and because all of us and our ideas live under the cross-examinationof the realities of the human condition.
>
> I also think our political and economic situations are so detached from any kind of humane realism ( let alone idealism) as to constitute a nightmarish marriage of Brave New World and 1984. The changes needed have been marginalized even when they are presented in the most palatable, sensible and respectful appeals(Bill McKibben, Wendell Berry, Richard Heinberg, Michael Korten, Amy Goodman,) OWS has focused on the key powers of democratic corruption and resistance to economic change. They have placed their bodies in the way of this situation , and they aren't going to be easily shut up or go away. Thank God, thank the Devil, thank Mother Earth, thank every one of theOWS supporters, thank the old lefties and the young, the artists, and all who dislike and oppose the spirit of fascism!
>
> On Nov 19, 2011, at 1:25 PM, Michael Bailey wrote:
>
>> Joseph, thanks for the counter-list!  I enjoy reading your viewpoint,
>> which I think of as idealist, activist and compassionate and also
>> aroused to anger through compassion...
>>
>> Just to make sure you distinguish, though, the list was mine, Michael
>> B's (a person somewhat supportive in a small way to OWS and similar
>> causes, and a bleeding heart liberal) - my caveats are those of a
>> (mostly) sympathizer.  I believe in (most of) the New Deal, I think
>> Social Security and Medicare are worth keeping, I think the Bush tax
>> cuts proved that tax cuts don't help, I favor Greg Palast over Milton
>> Friedman and I favor Michael Hudson's analysis over Austrian
>> economics...I think Howard Roark was kind of a dork...
>>
>> Michael F - I think you have stronger philosophical objections to the
>> OWS movement than mine, and probably different stances on the issues
>> above as well as others.  I enjoy reading what I tend to think of as
>> your libertarian views...
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>
>>> now to your list
>>> a) without a single leader many articulate leaders  and artists have been embraced and participated eloquently: Naomi Klein, Chris Hedges, Michael Moore, Arundhati Roy, Ry Cooder, Russel Simmons, SEIU leader Mary Henry, Cornel West, Asmaa Mahfouz (key leader of Tahrir square revolution), and many, many new voices powerfully addressing the gap between those with and without a say in their lives.
>>> b) but time after time it is the unconstitutional behavior and excessive force of "authorities"that is being revealed in glaring and unflattering light. Neverthless these young people feel wiser , more peaceful, and more eager to work with the cops and others while not giving up their occupation of public space, than those led by more radical elements in the 60's.  I try to follow quaker peace methods( not that great at it), but watching the film Burma vj has shaken my faith in the power of non-violent resistance pretty deeply. We are far from a place where violence makes any sense,and iam the first to argue that a violentrevolution tends to produce violent authoritarian leaders, but sometimes a bully needs to learn the hard way and people will protect themselves.
>>> c)No doubt this is very tough and the reason I am not there though I have been arrested  this year with vets for peace. One can also be in a supporting role and there has been much support. The key is that paying this price has produced a huge wave of support, disruption of the status quo, and exposure of the widespread discontent with the Power of Wall street and purchase of democracy. It's a creative tactic and it seems to be unleashing new creative tactics and provoking dissenters to be creative.
>>> d)Not sure I buy the idea that those who stayed in the system had the largest effect .  Could be an interesting topic to pursue? Also  those who did have an effect usually did not scoff at the 60s revolution but took it to wherever they were from Dan Ellsberg to Angela Davis, to Gloria Steinem, to Thomas Pynchon.
>>>
>>> One of the things I like about OWS is the importance of self education. They have a library, assemblies, speakers, and these are important. Lot of photos of young adults reading.
>>>
>>> My thoughts on OWS, 350.org, Democracy Now, Alternet, Michael Moore, the various components of the world wide anti-war and human justice movement. THIS IS IT. THIS IS WHAT YOU REALLY HAVE TO CHANGE DIRECTION . This is the hope that Obama promised but failed to occupy. Both parties work for international corporate interests and the Military. The differences are trivial. THIS IS THE REMNANTS OF DEMOCRACY IN THE US.
>>>
>>> On Nov 18, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Michael Bailey wrote:
>>>
>
>



-- 
"Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all
creeds the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the
trust in reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments
of darkness groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates
than the simplest urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant