frank miller

[Joe Allonby]

So what do they say hotel rooms near Wall St or South Station usually cost?

Some of the Occupy Boston organizers set up office space in a hotel
near the Greenway. This is a common business practice. Hotel rooms in
that area are not cheap. I believe this is covered by donations as is
some of the really good food that is being handed out.



On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Michael F <mff8785 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been quick to check out the various media outlets before I jump
> to quick to a conclusion on the character of the OWS folks.  Right
> wing media outlets, especially the NYPost are reporting the protestors
> staying in $700 a night hotels and eating meals at posh restaruantss.
> Many of the Left wing media outlets are portraying them as prophets in
> some lights.  I think both portrayals are pretty foolish.  However, in
> my backyard there has been vandalism of pubic property and direct
> threats to smaller business owners from OWS folks.  This has me angry.
>
> As for blaming the banks, like us, they are economic free-agents,
> willing to do what they like with their money.  In a democracy should
> a gov't regulate their behavior?  We get mad when they regulate our
> behavior.  Banks can do what they want, I just get angry when the
> gov't plays ball with them, favoring them rather than with "us".
> There should be a balance and this is lacking.  When I say "playing
> ball" with us, I don't mean the gov't forcing the banks to lower our
> mortagages or write of our debt.
>
> I understand Frank Miller's commentary.  What we are saying is:
>
>  "we can do what we want if you live in our democracy, unless you are
> a corporation or a bank. The gov't has to listen to us, not them.  The
> banks and corporations are evil."
>
> This ethos runs contradictory to democracy.  European Enlightenment
> and Post-Enlightenment thinkers warned us against this.  We need to
> change ourselves instead of looking outward.  Excuse me, maybe I've
> just read too much Joseph Campbell in my earlier years.
>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net> wrote:
>> On 11/20/2011 11:42 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm also confused by the statement: "just people crying and wallowing, and
>>> making the lives of many hardworking lower and middle class Americans that
>>> much more difficult."
>>>
>>> I've seen site-fuls of construction workers stand up and cheer and
>>> fist-pump as OWS marchers went by.  I've seen kitchen-workers come out and
>>> applaud, and retail clerks and cab drivers and truck drivers.  Unions
>>> representing service employees and pilots and teachers and nurses have been
>>> out in full force, marching and lending meeting spaces to the movement.
>>>  Obviously, no has benefitted more from the Occupy movement than the police,
>>> who are getting hefty overtime checks - because of decisions made by Mayors,
>>> not marchers.  The officer who arrested me whispered that he supported what
>>> we were doing.  He said he was struggling to make his mortgage payments and
>>> had lots of unemployed people in his family.  Even the sadistic security
>>> guards at the jail said they agreed with what we were doing.
>>>
>>> Lots of people have drawn comparisons between OWS and the Tea Party
>>> movement.  Their members have no love for each other, but they are, in fact,
>>> two wings of the same movement.  It's the movement that was born when first
>>> Bush, then Obama and a majority of Congress supported bailing out the banks
>>> even though the polls said that the majority of Americans were opposed to
>>> this.  The Tea Party blames the government, OWS blames the banks, but
>>> they're united in their outrage.
>>
>> But Laura, wasn't it good that all necessary steps were taken to keep the
>> financial system from collapsing?
>>
>> In a complex society you can't cripple one of its component parts without
>> causing great harm to just about everybody.
>>
>> Innocent and guilty alike.
>>
>> P
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: Joseph Tracy<brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> I appreciate you telling something about yourself and I agree with some
>>>> of what you are saying. We do need to adjust our daily lifestyles to
>>>> collectively bring down fossil fuel use, to grow food locally, to be more
>>>> creatively self reliant, to create more friendly peaceable communities.  But
>>>> all of that will make little difference if there is not serious political
>>>> change in the direction  and structure of national and global politics and
>>>> economics . The power and will of fossil fuel, Medical, mining, financial
>>>> industries and war industries has shown no regard for human justice or the
>>>> health of the biosphere. They own the political process in the US. You can
>>>> see their tracks in the Iraq war, the gulf oil spill, the financial fraud,
>>>> and unchecked global warming and a long history environmental desecration
>>>> and bloody coups and wars. There is no meaningful opposition to their
>>>> control of both parties. Occupy wall street is an attempt to set an example
>>>> of public resistance to this situation. It is part of a long history of
>>>> public demonstration and non-violent resistance which has over many years
>>>> been a key part of creating and maintaing the post colonial, post WW2
>>>> democratic middle class societies in much of the world and of the inclusion
>>>> of women and minorities as full citizens. Such demonstrations are continuing
>>>> to move things in that direction now in Islamic nations.
>>>>
>>>> Personal " attacks".  Nobody in this discussion has literally attacked
>>>> anyone else. The attack word is overblown..What we are talking about  would
>>>> more accurately be called  personal criricism. From my POV it starts with
>>>> your characterizing a movement of thousands of people with blanket phrases
>>>> like" just people crying and wallowing, and making the lives of many
>>>> hardworking lower and middle class Americans that much more difficult.",
>>>> "the OWS folks, like little kiddies, are drawing attention to their selves
>>>> and not an "issue", "their plan is not even half-baked, its foolish and
>>>> silly.", "Occupy folks are just looking to get media attention, which is
>>>> what there true goal is... attention." And all of this in defense of Frank
>>>> Miller's hateful statement on OWS.
>>>>
>>>> Well I happen to know several occupiers and your description is a set of
>>>> loaded personal criticisms that pretends to see others motives and is
>>>> offensive and wrong.  I questioned your motives and your qualification to
>>>> make these judgements, letting you know how it feels to be the object of
>>>> such personally pointed tactics.  Not so pleasant. Neither do I like phrases
>>>> like "they are the product of a lack of conceptual thinking and speak more
>>>> about the spitter rather than the target" no "ad Hominem" there? How about
>>>> your description of Naomi Klein as not a real thinker? Not a personal
>>>> insult? Have you read The Shock Doctrine?  Are you really sure this
>>>> constitutes  reason, not a"personal attack". People get defensive for
>>>> different reasons; personal  and political connections to OWS for me,
>>>> perhaps your admiration for Frank MIller and your offense at the ideas of
>>>> people like Moore or Klein. Its part of the baggage that often comes with a
>>>> passion for ideas.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe we could both agree to try for greater civility and to focus on
>>>> ideas and arguments, and avoid personal criticism.
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:56 PM, Michael F wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not resignation, just changing targets; politiicians and us as a
>>>>> collective whole.  Politicians make the laws, and our lifestyle have
>>>>> grown so materially indulgent that we don't know up from down, forward
>>>>> from backward.  If we don't readjust or daily livestyles it doesn't
>>>>> matter who we march on or sit-in on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe, my reasoning is "weak" in your estimation, but at least it is
>>>>> reason, unlike your personal attacks.  A defense of Frank Miller and
>>>>> others who question these OWS folks is necessary.  It seems to me as
>>>>> if you are questioning nothing and only subscribing to what a weakly
>>>>> fashioned, supposedly radical group is selling.  Unfortunately, your
>>>>> desire to attack "me" and not my account of the situation has
>>>>> prevented us from having any good disucussion.  I'll assume that as a
>>>>> listserv you guys know each other.  Here's my intro.  I am a
>>>>> registered democrat, 34 year old white male middle school ELA teacher
>>>>> in the East Bay with a girlfriend who teaches Spec. Ed.(no kids).  I
>>>>> also coach football and basketball, when not doing that I tutor
>>>>> intervention reading level students at my middle school.  I sit in on
>>>>> my upper level Lit and Philosophy courses at UC Berk and have
>>>>> published some pieces from time-to-time.  Why my background effects my
>>>>> "reason" or "contribution" to discussion, I have no idea.  But, for
>>>>> some reason attacking each other is what is done around here.  I only
>>>>> jumped in on this dialogue to defend Frank Miller with reason, rather
>>>>> than ideology.  By the way, I am not a Struassian, but I have read and
>>>>> confronted him, unlike most of media pundints who attempt to demonize
>>>>> him.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for my disrespectful tone, the OWS folks have caused property
>>>>> damage and are hurting the regions that need the most help.  I've been
>>>>> seeing with my own eyes for the past few weeks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>