Back to AtD. Music of the Spheres-- Not

Fri Jul 27 10:20:04 CDT 2012

Dubious Paul Mackin presents a counter-gloss:
Well said and argued:

"A couple items might be relevant but I'm dubious.

Adams was impressed by the devotion to the Virgin, the inspiration for the artistic and cultural achievements of the period.  That would be GOOD tradition.

Fear of the Devil might conceivably be advantageous in some group-solidarity sense.  But it was also important  to have a special interceder to do battle with him--this  would be St Michael atop the Mount.  Is that Archangel, who loved heights, implicated in the loss of belief and the coming of modernity?  Not saying yes or no.

I'm sure Pynchon is nostalgic for the old "natural" form existence took, but in nostalgia we pick and choose. P is also the antithesis of a traditionalist.  Novelists have to be to be any good.  As  Ian Watt, mentioned by  Paul N., says in his first chapter (courtesy of Amazon) the novel is well named."

P

I've mostly presented my case but I will only add that I see 'the devil' stuff in the tradition someone said when writing of Eliot and any modern writer who would be great: they have to know and have a deep vision of Evil, sin, our human darkness in their work. I think TRP tries for it here (in idea) combined w
his vision of modernity's repression of the fully human while it ramps up the technology of Evil........

In a sea-changing of Adams' beliefs, I suggest TRP is impressed by an olde traditional community's abilities to rule, discipline, understand itself. To allow this 'form of life' [Wittgenstein] to handle its own evils and be a (lost) model in our world....

yes, P is the antithesis of a 'traditionalist' as a novelist  but I aver his vision of the fully human is, as is the case w many 'radical' writers, conservative in some sense, in the sense that conserving the human is a universal good as his fiction mostly explores how we, the Western world, has lost the human, the chances for it in our lives, in History, in our diminshment of the ranges of being human in our modern world...

From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>
To: pynchon-l at waste.org 
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Back to AtD. Music of the Spheres-- Not

On 7/26/2012 1:47 PM, Mark Kohut wrote:

I cannot find the post from Phillip where he spoke of jazz--
>which TRP likes" -- as mostly Lydian, but yes, yes, 
> and to answer a point of Paul's I want to annotate thus: 
> 
>I do not think TRP needs to establish that he gives any literal credence to the folk belief---
>superstition as Paul calls it---that such and such notes had 'the devil' in them and were 
>therefore banned....I think, just as Henry Adams (and maybe TRP) was overwhelmed by
>how the folk of the times, those who built Mont-St-Charles and Chartres,lived in the fully-felt presence
> of Dante's God, TRP here is offering that those same folk beliefs are what allowed them to
>believe literally in the devil--and vanish him--and that this unity of belief is what has been lost
>in the modern age----(and the Invisible Evil which is not a literal devil Returns as the Return of
>the Repressed always does.) 
> 
>yet, in a much more local and different associative resonance, jazz is a secular metaphor for such
>Lydian unity, such 'playing together', akin to anarchism's 'working it out', a village's self-management
>via tradition and tacit beliefs, etc.......
> 
>In the text on that extraordinarily rich page, it is the Pythagorean which brings the modern Phrygian
>mode, so different from the Lydian. 
A couple items might be relevant but I'm dubious.

Adams was impressed by the devotion to the Virgin, the inspiration for the artistic and cultural achievements of the period.  That would be GOOD tradition.

Fear of the Devil might conceivably be advantageous in some group-solidarity sense.  But it was also important  to have a special interceder to do battle with him--this  would be St Michael atop the Mount.  Is that Archangel, who loved heights, implicated in the loss of belief and the coming of modernity?  Not saying yes or no.

I'm sure Pynchon is nostalgic for the old "natural" form existence took, but in nostalgia we pick and choose. P is also the antithesis of a traditionalist.  Novelists have to be to be any good.  As  Ian Watt, mentioned by  Paul N., says in his first chapter (courtesy of Amazon) the novel is well named.

P

>
>From: Phillip Greenlief mailto:pgsaxo at pacbell.net
>To: pynchon -l mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org 
>Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 2:06 PM
>Subject: Fw: Back to AtD. Music of the Spheres-- Not
>
>
>i will just comment on the theoretical aspect of these musical elements - you folks can interpret however you like.
>
>
>indeed, the lydian scale uses the sharp 4 (in this case, that's how you have to think of it. you can't think of it as the flat 5, because the perfect 5th is still a part of the scale - you can't have a scale that has a b5 and a P5). 
>
>
>if you are familiar with music and scales i am talking about a diatonic (fancy name for *scale*) construct that goes like this: C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C  - that's a C major scale (that usually has no sharps of flats) with a raised, augmented, or sharp 4 (so many terms!) - it's called the 4 because it is the fourth step in the scale.
>
>
>despite the fact that this note (the #4 or b5) is a part of the scale, it is actually thought of as a "bright" tonality - it is seen as light, pretty, beautiful (stravinsky uses this scale in his composition PASTORAL, a gorgeous little piece for woodwind quintet) ... this is interesting, because the # 4 is the same note as the flat 5 ... so the note has a kind of duality. some see it (if used in the lydian scale) as pretty and beautiful - some see the note as evil (indeed, during the renaissance the b5 was out of bounds - composers could not use it - it was against all rules and laws of theory - people actually thought it could summons the devil). of course, jazz musicians, whom pynchon seems to admire, use it with relish. 
>
>
>this note is also interesting to me because it sits at the very center of the octave. the perfect 5th and perfect 4th were called "perfect" back in the day because of their position in the overtone series (gosh, this is going to get really complicated if i describe the series - but the easiest way to describe the overtone series is that there are a lot of vibrations that occur when a note is sounded - the note you actually hear is called the Fundamental - but there are other notes that are vibrating at the same time - but your ear is only able to focus on the fundamental. 
>
>
>anyway, if you look at the octave, the tritone (#4, b5) is dead center. the other intervals are strong and ring clearly - if you have a piano at your disposal, just place C and F at the same time, or C and G at the same time and you'll see what i mean - because of their position in the overtone series, they produce a very strong, grounded, harmony.  the #4 or b5 has a lot of gravity to it, it's a kind of fulcrum, if you like. again, if you have a piano, play C and F# and the C above and see how it sounds. ....
>
>
>onward ...
>
>
>you also refer to the use of Phrygian scale in AtD - this scale is quite different - there is nothing ambiguous about it. it is thought of as a "darker" scale (this is the kind of nonsense adjectives used by musicologists, don't shoot the messenger). you find this scale in flamenco music and also in music from middle-europe - which makes sense, yashmeen and that crew are traversing this area in AtD. you play this scale and bingo - it is rife with cultural associations as discussed in earlier posts.
>
>
>this scale is constructed differently - it is merely a natural minor scale with a b2, or minor 2nd. if we think of C as our tonality, it goes like this: C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C ... it has the minor 3rd, 6th and 7th that it inherited from the natural minor scale but also has a flat 2nd. a great scale, kids! 
>
>
>as i said, i think there is little ambiguity about the use of this tonality. whereas, the lydian thing is kind of can of worms that could have several interpretations as per its use in the fiction we are discussing.
>
>
>
>
>
> Phillip Greenlief
>1075 Aileen Street Apt B
>Oakland, CA 94608
>510-501-7110 
>
>
>
>
>From: Paul Mackin mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net
>To: pynchon-l at waste.org
>Sent: Wed, July 25, 2012 9:41:09 AM
>Subject: Re: Back to AtD. Music of the Spheres-- Not
>
>
>On 7/25/2012 8:19 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>
>OK, all you plister musicians and the rest who know music better'n me, which oughta be about
>>all of you, or at least you know what you like as the saying goes and which might be apt as
>>the guide for me to be wild in speculation about the next bit in AtD......p.940......
>>
>>p. 940.Lydian vs. Phyrgian modes.....Altho other medieval modes are represented, the Lydian is
>>absent in Balkan villages now...."the interval which our awkwardly unflatted B makes with
>>F was known to the ancients as 'the devil in the music'.....
>>
>>"they tend to favor the so-called Phrygian mode, quite common thru the region.".....[attribute[d] to
>>Pythagoras, and may be traceable all the way back to Orpheus himself"......."In view, added Yashmeen,
>>of the similarity if not identity, between Pythagorean and Orphic teachings"...
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_mode
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_mode
>>
>>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pythagoras/
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphism_%28religion)
>>
>>My gloss, one level of possible meaning, I say: TRP values the ancient wisdom of folk tradition(s) in general,
>>even making sure we understand he respects the Volk of Deep Germany as he slashes Germans and their modern history
>>in his works, so here, as the Balkans build to War, they have lost the medieval Lydian mode wherein the devil was 
>>"in the music', known and tangible (as God was to them) but then, the devil went underground [see below and elsewhere] and reemerged
>>in the abstract....I am taken with TRP giving Yashmeen the connection between the Phrygian mode and Pythagoras, often
>>called the first mathematician and "Orphic teachings" [unverifiable says wikpedia] which I will read to the disagreement of
>>many as another slam at mathematics as an abstraction from 'real life', the folk life of all of us 
>>& also here another linking
>>of the abstraction of religious beliefs [Orphism as example] with the other abstractions--the day-lit fictions-- punctured in AtD. 
>It sounds like the volk are still observing the taboo against the unflatted B in the scale starting on F.  So, to build your case, won't you have to defend this superstitious behavior?  In the eyes of Pynchon?  Need some clarification.
>
>IMHO it's not a good idea to try to decide what Pynchon approves of and doesn't.  Not an absolute rule of course.
>
>The whole scene does serve the purpose of getting Y and her party invited along on the expedition to Thrace.
>
>P
>
>
>>
>>http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/please-allow-me-to-introduce-myself/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/please-allow-me-to-introduce-myself/
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20120727/63bedbde/attachment.html>