[Bulk] Pynchon, books and readers

Tue Jun 19 17:17:47 CDT 2012

To this excellent post, I came back online to say this:

The only word in that guy's 'criticism' that bothers me is "obscene"....echoing those philistines
on the Columbia Pulitzer Board who overturned a unanimous judgment from real, lesser writers
because they din't know obscene from their obscene philistine asshole sensibility...............

I hate 'obscene' as a judgment. fyi. (I, nobody, do not think de Sade worth reading except for sociological reasons
but....who cares about this?

Lotsa 'critics' who came to power and influence later than GR's time--and one who did from that time that I know of (I'm sure there
are others)---Morris Dickstein--have used some of those other words about GR........

(I have heard, second-hand, that Gore Vidal has kept GR down--or off--certain lists with his lifelong dissing of such as Barth and TRP .
He still seems to think they write to 'show how erudite they are', not to tell a real story with attendant insights. So it goes.

James Wood, of course, is the TOP GUN defining the post-sixties-sensibility critics who underrates Pynchon. We know this.

________________________________
 From: Tom Beshear <tbeshear at att.net>
To: Matthew Cissell <macissell at yahoo.es>; pynchon-l at waste.org 
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Pynchon, books and readers

Adam Roberts is a British SF writer of some distinction, tho' even he can have loopy opinions, i.e., that GR couldn't have enjoyed  popular success --  we know that in the '70s the Bantam paperback told close to a million copies, on top of a lot of trade paperbacks from the original publisher. Perhaps it didn't sell nearly as well in the UK, which might color Roberts' opinion.

As for whether GR is SF, well, it was a finalist for the SF Writers of America's Nebula Award (won instead that year by Arthur C. Clarke's retrograde Rendezvous with Rama). The early 1970s fell during the last years of the New Wave in science fiction, a movement that saw a loosening of subject matter (sexanddrugsandrocknroll), a political liberalization, and a focus on stylistic experiments that rejected SF's use of transparent style (i.e. writing that doesn't call attention to itself). GR would fit comfortably on a shelf of books like Dhalgren, Crash, Stand on Zanzibar and The Female Man, let alone Harlan Ellison's short stories or works like Pamela Zoline's "The Heat Death of the Universe." GR may not look like SF now to a lot of people who learned about SF post-Star Wars (gadgets, anyone?), which set the commercial writing genre back decades, but it looks like SF of the time.

But at any rate, if Roberts says it's SF, it's
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Cissell" <macissell at yahoo.es>
To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 10:01 AM
Subject: [Bulk] Pynchon, books and readers

Hey P-listers

Forgive me if this has come up before. Are many of you familiar with "The History of Science Fiction" by Adam Roberts? Its one of the books I'm chipping away at. In chapter 13, Prose Science Fiction 1970's - 1990's, he gets around to TP. First, he writes that GR, "has a plausible claim to be the greatest SF novel of the 1970's." Granted, Roberts does have a very wide definition of SF, but how many of you would call it SF?

Second, and this is where he really got my attention, he writes of GR that "it is too long, too complex, rebarbative and obscene ever to have enjoyed popular success (that it is still in print today is almost cetainly because universities require their students to buy it)."

The last bit is so speculative it hurts. Does he have any numbers about book sales or university courses? This is the kind of unfounded claim that I address in my ongoing work. I think one would find that CoL49 is more often included in sylabi at universities.

Mark, your mail is part of the angle missing from my field of vision. When will you provide a downloadable version of your knowledge and experience related to publishing?

ciao
mc otis

________________________________
From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
To: Prashant Kumar <p.kumar at physics.usyd.edu.au>
Cc: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Pynchon eBook Trailer

In filling in all around Pynchon, this would be an interesting exercise, getting and using ALL the facts and educated guesses
one could get........I kinda wish I had time.........

But, short answers to provide some framework.....Writers get "advances"--an upfront loan paid back by royalty deductions later---
upon which to live while they write their books. TRP had to get these, and especially of some liveable-on size after Crying of Lot 49..
We know by hearsay that he wrote the story that became Lot 49 because he 'needed' money, so royalties from V. (and any initial advance
for GR--if there was one) might have entropied his worklife. (is this a psychological 'objective correlative" for his early concern with entropy?
One might also remember how he was said to be always running in Positively Fourth Street...'fearing time was running out"? )

Anyway, he broke through into, perhaps, enough sales to live on when Lot 49 was published in paperback. He went wide. Lot 49 was
many readers' intro into his work and soon enough the Academy was assigning it so sales continued and grew.

Then GR was a legitimate NYTimes bestseller.....(minimum 50,00 sold, very minimum....surely over 100, 000, 200,000 then....and
earlier ones picked up again.....)

And he got grants......a macArthur when, 80s sometime)...a Guggenheim earlier?........

Bigger advances for later works, I'm sure...(aspect of book accounting not much known: an author can sometimes NOT sell enoough copies
to earn the royalties that pay back the amount they were advanced YET.....

the publishing company still can make nice money on the sales after deducting losses for unclaimed advances.....(work it out sometime w
made-up amounts....)

And, with Pynchon, unlike any flash in pan, literary or purely commercialm he has always been in print so is always earn ing some royalties...

i would essay this too-quick guess.....Today, 2012.....TRP sells maybe 5,000 paperback copies of all his books except GR and Lot 49....
(and, yes, that is a reductive generlaized number and I'll bet some plisters might want to speculate on the varying ongoing sales of the various novels)
I'd say 10,000 GR a year....and over 20,000 Lot 49 a year........

so, do some math....

And flame me for hasty stupidities......

From: Prashant Kumar <p.kumar at physics.usyd.edu.au>
To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
Cc: Tyler Wilson <tbsqrd at hotmail.com>; P-list <pynchon-l at waste.org>; "against.the.dave at gmail.com" <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: Pynchon eBook Trailer

Stupid follow up question (it was me who asked the original): how does that translate into average yearly income?

'cos if we imagine (entirely for argument) that TRP gets 15% on books at $30 ea. and 100,000 (I have no idea whether this is a realistic figure) sales for the lifetime of a book, say 20 years, then that's a grad student's stipend of $22,500 p.a.

On 16 June 2012 04:30, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:

I don't know 'nothin, Tyler, but if I have time i may try to get some answers...
> 
> but your post remeinded me that I wanted to answer the post of whoever asked
> what a writer like Pynchon earns.........
> 
> And the answer for most writers' printed books is 8 to 15% royaltes--from list price---per sale.
> A writer loses no royalties when one buys new from amazon, and such.....(some exception to that
> if the publisher has terms regarding lower roylaties if they have to sell at standard wholesale (and higher--what are called 'special sales") prices.)
> 
> There are often bonueses for hitting bestsller lists---almost always the NYT...
> 
> TRP surely had contracts at 15% after GR....earlier ones could have been lower--10--12.5%
> but have surely been renegotiated since........
> 
> Writers typically get 50% of all
subrights deals.........paperback license, movie rights, Czech editions, etc.)
> 
> One aspect of p's ebook deal that some in the industry wonder about is Why/How did penguin get all of them?
> Deals?...why din't they--harper, no slouches---fight to keep the ones they 'own"?
> 
> Ms. Jackson and Thomas obviously wanted Penguin for all..........
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tyler Wilson <tbsqrd at hotmail.com>
> To: P-list <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Cc: against.the.dave at gmail.com
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:18 PM
> Subject: RE: Pynchon eBook Trailer
> 
> 
> 
> Any of you folks know anything about--or seen before--the artwork in P's eBook trailer representing Slow Learner?: the bird, the train, the pyramid... I have never seen those graphics, and it seems I would have by now, my not-quite-healthy interest long in the running. I've a distant recollection of reading that he did not at all care for the cover art of the
Little Brown first edition. (Can anyone confirm this?) So perhaps these graphics were created for the trailer instead?
> Can anyone school me?
> With all my gratitude,--T
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: against.the.dave at gmail.com
>> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 012 2::5::8 -500<
>> Subject: Re: Pynchon eBook Trailer
>> To: scuffling at gmail.com
>> CC: pynchon-l at waste.org
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 3,, 012 at ::7 AM, Henry M <scuffling at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >
http://greg.org/archive/012//6//2//thomas_pynchons_e-book_trailer.html
>> > greg.org: the making of: Thomas Pynchon's e-Book Trailer
>> > By greg
>> > Thomas Pynchon's e-Book Trailer. Four words that I, for one, ever > expected
>> > to type in this sequence, but here we are. After Long Resistance,
>> > Pynchon Allows Novels to Be Sold as E-Books [nyt] Thomas Pynchon on
>> > Kindle someday,
>> > but not yet ..
>> 
>> Thomas Pynchon - The Complete Collection - eBooks
>> 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urNQSSEEBGA
> 
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