Fwd: List of agnostics

Thu Jun 28 19:44:26 CDT 2012

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: List of agnostics
To: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>

Mr. Malignd, you will forgive me if I have attempted to decide what you can
or cannot post but I hope you see my point, the religious (or nonreligious)
beliefs of the PList are agonizingly boring. Who cares? Only those who wish
to Pontificate at length some venomous twaddle.
If you really want to have such an argument outside of the context of
Pynchon should you not go elsewhere?
This is the *Pynchon* List, no?
Mr. Greenlief, do yourself a favor and finish M&D, it is my current
opinion, to the chagrin of others on this list, that this is Pynchon's most
poetic novel.

Mr. Mackin & Mr Morris you make interesting points. Much of the
'spiritualism' in GR (and M&D for that matter) ought to be taken with a
grain of salt, Dixon's Ley Lines, Peter Redztinger's (sp?) personal Jesus &
his Golems, the Old Hell-Cat of Raby Castle come to mind... Yet Mason, ever
the Melancholy Deist, does seem to adapt some of these Mythologizing
inclinations, not out of belief in them, but rather as stories or myths to
amiably pass the time on his own in Ireland or in the Frigid North.
Still, these are to be taken with a hint of Irony.
Yet what are we to make of the Frenchman's Duck? Dixon's Watch?
Is not the S-Gerat referred to as "mythical"? The folks at the Movie-House
at the very end might think of it as such.
The Duck is taken by the Crew as just another Frenchman's Fantasy until
it's presence becomes known along the Line, for instance.

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>wrote:

>  On 6/28/2012 2:00 PM, Phillip Greenlief wrote:
>
> comrade lemuel asked if we might explore religion/faith/spirituality in
> pynchon, and i've been musing on that ... here are some thoughts:
>
> i don't see any obvious reliance on, or confrontations with, faith in
> pynchon
>
>
> Spiritualism in GR is treated in a rather funny way.  On the one hand, the
> seances are  among the various  often quite funny  quackeries that have
> been assembled at White Visitation in the service of winning the war.  On
> the other hand, there seem to be real connections made with the dead, and
> of course the dead weren't always dead--their lives are part of the story
> too.  So, a faith orientation serves as  a narrative device. Does this
> count?
>
> Same with Dixon and Rebekah.
>
> Then there's Gnosticism.
>
> As far as spirituality is concerned, does spirituality involve faith in
> the supernatural (like spiritualism does for some)?  Is seeing a soul in
> every stone something that happens outside our mind.  Any suspension of the
> laws of nature required? Probably not, therefore not part of the discusion.
>
> P
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  (although, i'm ashamed to admit, i have never finished M&D, and i feel
> there may be evidence there - alas!) in the way you see this process
> explored in say, the films of ingmar bergman, where, in the 50's in
> particular, he was often bumping up against the classic question, "god, why
> have you forsaken me?" (as in SEVENTH SEAL, WINTER LIGHT, VIRGIN SPRING,
> etc). nor do i see any obvious attempts to sum up spirituality - like you
> get in his FANNY AND ALEXANDER, where the jewish merchant's son describes
> (or, rather, quotes spinoza?) humanity and its deeds as "god's thought",
> which is what his father believes; whereas he believes that we are "god's
> nightmares".
>
> no, in pynchon, i find a strong tradition of existentialists, who mold
> their own moral/ethical codes based on their experience and personal
> history. sarte said (in his tract, EXISTENTIALISM IS A HUMANISM) it didn't
> matter whether you are a believer or not, you could include religion as
> just another tool in your toolkit that allows you to forge said moral code.
> (ok, i'm paraphrasing!) but regardless, your actions are what defines you,
> not your rhetoric.
>
> seems to me that slothrup, the traverse family, oedipa maas, doc sportello
> and the rest of pynchon's heroes take on this task and deal with what is on
> their plate. their deeds usually speak stronger than their words. they are
> usually bumping up against foes whose rhetoric and actions are, shall we
> say, sometimes not in perfect alignment.
>
> it does please me, as a native, that the one example that comes to mind of
> a kind of loose portrayal of spirituality that (someone) was citing
> yesterday that "we are all connected" is illustrated in AGAINST THE DAY in
> the chapter where frank traverse ingests a peyote-like substance and has
> classic shamanic visions. nice.
>
> without investigating further, that's all i can come up with off the
> tattered cuff.
>
> phillip
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com> <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
> *To:* Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com> <luunderwing at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Jude Bloom <jude at bloomradio.com> <jude at bloomradio.com>;
> "malignd at aol.com" <malignd at aol.com> <malignd at aol.com> <malignd at aol.com>;
> "pynchon-l at waste.org" <pynchon-l at waste.org> <pynchon-l at waste.org><pynchon-l at waste.org>
> *Sent:* Wed, June 27, 2012 11:45:40 PM
> *Subject:* Re: List of agnostics
>
> Religion IS paranoia. It is the disease that recreates the world according
> to the fable that everything connects, when, in fact, things rarely
> connect. Spinoza sees everything as an expression of the mind of God, and
> the human mind as that very mind of God incarnate. Of the worlds major
> religions, Taoism and atheism are the only ones that allow for
> disconnection, disparity. And of those, only atheism is the only religion
> that allows for uncorrected divergence. Also, as the great churches crumble
> in the face of scientific method and the advances in quality of life it
> brings, the lesser churches fill the gaps with perversions of dogma that
> make their palaver more palatable to the desperate people who find
> themselves lost in a world too complex to reduce to right and wrong without
> the aid of massive doses of denial. And denial results in projection, which
> connects everything back to God the Projector. I think of theists as people
> who believe independent agencies external to themselves cause them to act
> in ways they would not freely choose. The non-theist knows that the subject
> always chooses, whether consciously or not, and it is precisely the
> complexity of choice that makes possible the irruptions of seeming
> cooperation in the world. These are the anarchist miracles, which,
> projected upon, seem like they could be incursions from another reality.
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> is there some sort of Religious Paranoia or a Religion *of *Paranoia?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Jude Bloom <jude at bloomradio.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  I dunno. We're in the midst of what seems unparalleled to me, at least
>>> in modern times: the rapid growth of atheism, and the rapid decline in
>>> religion. The intellectual & moral normalization of atheism. With the
>>> attendant death throes and spasms, i.e. religious craziness & violence.
>>> Plus, I think the fall-out from the Catlick priests & little boys is
>>> underestimated. For many folks, the Church has been irreparably Sanduskied.
>>> Although I see in re-reading Dubliners this week that Joyce was hip to
>>> those guys all along, a hundred years ago.
>>>
>>>  I credit Hitchens, myself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 27, 2012, at 7:39 PM, Lemuel Underwing <luunderwing at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Mr. Malignd, I think you are in the Wrong Place, good sir.  Byron the
>>> Bulb is still out there somewhere, a-shinin' down on us, Pynchonite
>>> Believers and Unbelievers alike. The Chums of Chance are not one of those
>>> more Religious Ballooning Clubs but some of the Crew are certainly more
>>> open to Spiritual Experience...?
>>>
>>> There is a site called reddit.com/r/atheism that may be of some use to
>>> you, but let us keep ourselves on Task, eh? Let us turn away from the
>>> "World" and seek evidence of the Supernatural-in-Pynchon.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:26 PM, <malignd at aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Theological niceties aside, what at bottom is faith other than an
>>>> irrational belief in a supernatural spirit world, for which there is not a
>>>> shred of evidence?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Phillip Greenlief <pgsaxo at pacbell.net>
>>>> To: malignd <malignd at aol.com>
>>>> Cc: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>> Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 7:20 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: List of agnostics
>>>>
>>>>  On Jun 27, 2012, at 2:49 PM, malignd at aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  I'm an atheist.  The idea that there's a supernatural diety who
>>>> created the universe and also listens personally to everyone's prayers --
>>>> that people believe this ... I can't understand it.  It's the thinking of
>>>> primitive people trying haplessly to explain the unknown to themselves and
>>>> yet it persists.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ************************************
>>>>
>>>>  your analysis of faith seems crude at best, but ok ... do your thing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: kelber <kelber at mindspring.com>
>>>> To: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>> Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2012 11:14 am
>>>> Subject: Re: List of agnostics
>>>>
>>>>  It's hard to believe that all the people on this list would identify themselves
>>>> as agnostics, rather than atheists (though it's possible that Pynchon might be
>>>> an agnostic - there's no way of knowing, which, I guess, makes us all
>>>> Pynchon-agnostics).  Lots of people I know say things such as "I'm not
>>>> religious, but I still think there's some sort of intelligence out there."  I
>>>> don't think they mean it in the Arthur C. Clarke sense, but more in a
>>>> spiritual-lite fear of there not being some sort of overriding moral force
>>>> guiding all that we do.  Personally, I'm an atheist:  there's no god, but if you
>>>> want to be religious, shut the fuck up about it!
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
>>>> >Sent: Jun 27, 2012 10:41 AM
>>>> >To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>> >Subject: List of agnostics
>>>> >
>>>> >Thomas Pynchon, (born 1937): Catholic-raised author of The Crying of
>>>> >Lot 49 and Gravity's Rainbow. According to former friend, Jules
>>>> >Siegel, "he went to mass and confessed, though to what would be a
>>>> >mystery."
>>>> >
>>>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics#Authors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>  --
> "Less than any man have I  excuse for prejudice; and I feel for all creeds
> the warm sympathy of one who has come to learn that even the trust in
> reason is a precarious faith, and that we are all fragments of darkness
> groping for the sun. I know no more about the ultimates than the simplest
> urchin in the streets." -- Will Durant
>
>
>
>
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