AI Re: In Which Jung prewrites AtD's epigraph

[Joseph Tracy]

On Mar 17, 2012, at 8:32 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:

> I think he is seeing a convergence that is horribly Frankensteinian and against which he thinks we should start a revolution. 
 That was my first reaction/impression and I tend to read it that way, but there is the line "it is certainly something for all good Luddites to look forward to , which is a bit confusing.
> 
> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org> 
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 7:59 PM
> Subject: Re: AI Re: In Which Jung prewrites AtD's epigraph
> 
> I actually don't know what Pynchon is seeing here in this convergence or even if it tickles or appalls him? Computers do offer a democratizing possibility that perhaps he sees amplified in a dramatic way by this convegence. I am skeptical because of the degree to which bio -engineering and robotics are concentrating power in fewer hands and computers are part of a growing surveillance state.. I wonder what he would say today on such a topic. Does he mean" look forward to" as in smashing this new technology like good Luddites? Any thoughts?  
> 
>     "If our world survives, the next great challenge to watch out for will come -- you heard it here first -- when the curves of research and development in artificial intelligence, molecular biology and robotics all converge. Oboy. It will be amazing and unpredictable, and even the biggest of brass, let us devoutly hope, are going to be caught flat-footed. It is certainly something for all good Luddites to look forward to if, God willing, we should live so long. Meantime, as Americans, we can take comfort, however minimal and cold, from Lord Byron's mischievously improvised song, in which he, like other observers of the time, saw clear identification between the first Luddites and our own revolutionary origins. It begins:
> 
> As the Liberty lads o'er the sea
> Bought their freedom, and cheaply, with blood,
> So we, boys, we
> Will die fighting, or live free,
> And down with all kings but King Ludd!"
> On Mar 16, 2012, at 6:29 PM, Matthew Cissell wrote:
> 
> > I am not a machine. Mechanistic metaphors to describe our species do not make our species a machine. Machines are not sentient (not yet).
> > 
> >     I'm no expert on AI, but it seems like people like Dreyfuss and Searle (JS is no dualist) had a point about the importance of the concept of mind that was behind AI back then. Now Dan Zahavi has added something new to the subject by drawing on Merleau-Ponty's idea of embodiment to talk about embodied consciousness.
> >     And a question: to what extent is the idea of singularity just a technophile version of some apocalyptic passage toward a utopian world that eliminates all the dichotomies and binaries that afflict us (echoes of Donna Haraway). No more problems of race or gender or identity with the Singularity!    
> >     " the real question for humans is when we can manufacture machines to do everything  human's used to do, then what will human's do?" The question is, what humans are we talking about? Somehow I have trouble imagining the majority of people in Africa (for example) worrying about this situation. I mean they have trouble getting AIDS medication. 
> > 
> >     I suspect I'll die without seeing the Singularity. Oh darn.
> > 
> > Ciao
> > MC Otis
> > 
> > 
> >     
> > 
> > From: Jude Bloom <jude at bloomradio.com>
> > To: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> 
> > Cc: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org> 
> > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 6:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: In Which Jung prewrites AtD's epigraph
> > 
> > Why do we suppose that humans and machines will be different entities? Don't all the arrows seem to be pointing to a convergence?
> > 
> > Unless you're a kind of dualist, there are already sentient machines, that is, us.  ??
> > 
> > 
> > On Mar 16, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Still, as Pynchon's thoughts seem to imply, the real question for humans is when we can manufacture machines to do everything  human's used to do, then what will human's do? I guess fight over who programs the machines and where to get the energy without killing everything.  Always something fun to look forward to.  
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