Critical Thinking

Thu Sep 20 19:01:52 CDT 2012

But just after the publication of CL49? I did read an abstract of a paper (I think given at an Interbational PWeek) claiming all the novels, except Vineland (IV hadn't come out yet) were begun in the '60s. I was skeptical. Still am. Anyone remember seeing something about the paper?

--- On Thu, 9/20/12, Markekohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Markekohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Critical Thinking
To: "Don Higgins" <bencanard2000 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "malignd at aol.com" <malignd at aol.com>, "Pynchon List" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Date: Thursday, September 20, 2012, 7:29 PM

Just a note. I might think some of the linguistic sources for ATD would be the slang of a slightly earlier time as most folk might be using some of it then. Just like I keep saying "cool"..
I am with those who think he won't write on the civil war because it would be too direct a tackle.By indirection let deepest rifts unfurl.

Sent from my iPad
On Sep 20, 2012, at 6:36 PM, Don Higgins <bencanard2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

The Mason and Dixon rumors date back to the 70s when they were mentioned in an "article," a few lines really, though I've only seen an OCR'd database version, in Newsweek, saying that P walked the line. There's a letter from the mid 60s (after CL49), however, in which P asks the recipient if he knows about any good dictionary of American slang that relates to the 1870s and 80s. I guess that's too late for the civil war but too early for AtD, but somehow those civil war rumors and that dictionary request got tied up in my mind.

--- On Thu, 9/20/12, malignd at aol.com <malignd at aol.com> wrote:

From: malignd at aol.com <toomalignd at aol.com>
Subject: Re: Critical Thinking
To: pynchon-l at waste.org
Date: Thursday, September 20, 2012,
 5:42 PM

Apparently back when he was writing M&D, the title was leaked because there was a rumor that he was working on a civil war novel, which made everyone think of a Pynchonian War and Peace.  Instead, a book about surveyors 

-----Original Message-----

From: Don Higgins <bencanard2000 at yahoo.com>

To: Pynchon List <pynchon-l at waste.org>

Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 8:16 pm

Subject: Re: Critical Thinking

I'd like to see an 800 page civil war novel.

--- On Wed, 9/19/12, malignd at aol.com <malignd at aol.com> wrote:

From: malignd at aol.com <malignd at aol.com>

Subject: Re: Critical Thinking

To: pynchon-l at waste.org

Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 5:38 PM

Isn't that what M&D was, larded down with all the lame jokes and "funny" names and sophomoric humor and talking ducks, etc., that he can't seem to let go of?  Do you really want more of that?  I would like to see him seriously engage the present and toss aside all of what have long become weary stylistic tics and dead-in-the-water
 go-tos.

-----Original Message-----

From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>

To: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org>

Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 11:27 am

Subject: Re: Critical Thinking

      Maybe what needs to happen is for Pynchon to bite the bullet and
      get Retro. That's what readers, including "highbrow" ones,
      probably want these days. So maybe, on the next novel, drop the
      Tomfoolery and get more with the times.  

      In other words there's a lot of truth in what Rich said about the
      readers' tastes changing. Rich was talking about himself, but we
      can generalize it. Acknowledging this fact rather than laying it
      all on the author's writing quality makes sense to me.  So in a
      way it's Us not Him.  In a way, but not in a good way.

      What I'd like to see is for Pynchon to put his enormous talents to
      something we might actually enjoy reading.  Horror, Gothic,
      Mystery.  I'm not kidding.  These genres can be done very well if
      the writer has talent.

      Please Mr. Pyncher, do it for your fans.

      P

      On 9/19/2012 10:44 AM, Keith Davis wrote:

    I enjoyed IV and I'll read it again sometime. Don't
      care if it's not earthshaking like GR. I took it as a parody of
      detective fiction. Still recognized P's voice. Still weird and
      funny.

        On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 2:22 AM, jochen stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
        wrote:

          "Contrast it with IV, where the style is P at his worst."

          Some examples?

          "There i nothing wrong with Larry's story, but the telling of
          it is poor."

          Some proof?

          The rest of your reasoning, Pynchon-wise, literature-wise, is
          sound, in my eyes.

          > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:07 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
          wrote:

          >> one of the things I wonder about is as you say re
          GR-- Pynchon

          >> "historical facts which were hard to find in middle
          of the road

          >> history book." One of Pynchon' shtick was the
          overly-detailed

          >> authentic voice/fact/scenarios he dreams up. but now
          with the hyper

          >> info drip feed/accessible 24/7, is this not as cool
          as it once was?

          >> i'm trying to denote clearly why say AtD is missing
          the punch of

          >> previous books. is it he culled all the facts and
          what came out was

          >> not so interesting as before, or we're all
          encyclopedias now (that'll

          >> be my banner slogan, ha!) so if you replicate an era
          precisely but you

          >> lack a convincing story, it doesnt matter how well
          you write--it still

          >> comes off as dull or all research. M&D had those
          characteristics also

          >> but the underpinning story was just as good I
          thought.  In short, I

          >> guess I still enjoy Pynchon for the language, the
          level of the

          >> sentence like I noted before about DeLIllo but not so
          much anymore the

          >> stories he's telling or the level of historical
          detail and research

          >> that went into the book.

          >>

          >> p.s. Kai I can appreciate that you argue with
          non-novelists. I wish I

          >> had the stamina to read philosophy but I don't. guess
          as Coover says

          >> we need stories or I need stories.

          >>

          >> rich

          >>

          >> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Kai Frederik
          Lorentzen

          >> <lorentzen at hotmail.de>
          wrote:

          >>>

          >>>> my favorite novelist

          >>>

          >>> Make that novelists: The slip - if telling at all
          - probably has to do with

          >>> the fact that I reread Der Zauberberg (The Magic
          Mountain) in early summer

          >>> and - Hey man, the best book! - it simply rocked
          my mind. But Pynchon is

          >>> definitely still on my list!

          >>>

          >>>

          >>> On 18.09.2012 21:12, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
          wrote:

          >>>

          >>>

          >>> Myself I don't have this that much with novels
          anymore. I argue in my mind

          >>> with philosophers, social scientists, or mystics.
          Not with novelists, whose

          >>> works I consider more to be like symphonies or
          poetry. To argue with Pynchon

          >>> about, say, his take on the Balkans question in
          AtD does not appear to be

          >>> fruitful to me. It's like argueing with Ezra
          Pound on Confucianism when you

          >>> read The Cantos. Gravity's Rainbow way back was
          different insofar as it

          >>> contains historical facts which were hard to find
          in middle of the road

          >>> history books. Of course it still interests me
          what my favorite novelist

          >>> think about this and that - like Thomas Mann's
          changing attitudes towards

          >>> the West over the years -, but basically it's all
          about melody and rhythm.

          >>>

          >>> On 18.09.2012 15:41, rich wrote:

          >>>

          >>> something ive been mulling over in my mind
          recently--do you find

          >>> yourself having conversations with the novels you
          read (and indirectly

          >>> the novelist I suppose), I mean arguments,
          questions, confusions,

          >>> anger at times, too. I wonder why despite feeling
          somewhat negative

          >>> about Pynchon's last two books I continue to
          engage them. Far be it

          >>> for me to want to be one of those guys or gals
          who harp ad nauseum

          >>> about the things they obviously hate. I mean if
          you dont feel the need

          >>> to argue with the writer you're reading, that
          must mean something.

          >>> Pynchon has really annoyed me the last few yrs
          (much of which

          >>> admittedly is not his fault--Ive changed, he
          hasn't or maybe he has

          >>> who knows).  there seems to be some benefit for
          me to argue with him.

          >>> guess i'll just continue on with that

          >>>

          >>> rich

          >>>

          >>>

          >>>

          >>>

          >>>

          >>>

      -- 

      www.innergroovemusic.com

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