Today's discussion question

[Joseph Tracy]

Prejudice means pre-judging. Ian indulged in postjudice based on direct experience. I have witnessed similar shit with the whole born again Christian thing where people keep their complex  neuroses, prejudices and inclinations to mass violence despite the teachngs of Jesus.  Now everybody chill and chant Om Mane Padme Hum ten times, say ten Hail Mary's and compare results. What Menken fails to mention is that wisdom is not on tap anywhere. So what? If there is wisdom,  and admit I think so,  it seems to enter human consciousness and experience from many directions and be marked by paradox. 

Back to Alice's question, I do think that the whole ultra chutzpa of western science and of most religions has been tried and found wanting. Less guns, less priests; more vegetables, more humility, more friendliness.  Or are we betting on Ted Talks and free trade to save the world?  

Lenin said all political power comes from the barrel of a gun. That is a truth I have never been able to reconcile myself with. It constitutes the hard fact behind a lot of B.S.  Is Gravity's Rainbow at least partly describing the emergence of corporate Leninism?


 
On Aug 13, 2013, at 8:15 PM, David Morris wrote:

> My point to Ian was about his prejudice re. Western Buddhist.
> 
> On Tuesday, August 13, 2013, David Morris wrote:
> Again, your response ignores the context of my question to Ian, who generally condemned Westerners who have adopted Buddhism and said he'd "run afoul" of their I'll-fitting said adoption.  All of Ian's personal experiences in that regard were on Western turf, where your answer to my question is irrelevant at best.
> 
> On Tuesday, August 13, 2013, Bekah wrote:
> By that logic no Christian could hate his neighbor because  "love" is a fundamental goal of Christianity.   As far as I know,  all religions have members whose behavior falls short of the goals of their creed.    That's why these basics are goals and admonitions,  not penalized by expulsion (therefore not a Christian) if the followers (members/believers)  fall short.
> 
> Bekah
> 
> 
> On Aug 13, 2013, at 4:47 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Please refer to my response to Malignd.
> >
> > On Tuesday, August 13, 2013, Bekah wrote:
> > Or on the Pakistani border or the Delhi slums where the Hindus clash with the Muslims regularly.
> >
> > Sunday:
> > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/10236064/Kashmir-Violence-escalates-between-Hindus-and-Muslims.html
> >
> > Bekah
> >
> > On Aug 13, 2013, at 2:06 PM, malignd at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > You live as a Muslim in Burma.
> > > How does one run afoul of any Buddhist, of whatever stripe.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> > > To: Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: alice wellintown <alicewellintown at gmail.com>; pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > > Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 8:07 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Today's discussion question
> > >
> > > How does one run afoul of any Buddhist, of whatever stripe.  Did someone criticize your words or behavior?  Did you cruely squash an innocent bug in his presence?  Or is it that the Buddist ran afoul of your prejudices?  From your harsh judgement of their aspirations, I would guess the later.  "Equanimity" is a foundational goal of Buddhism.  Tolerance is equanimity toward others.
> > >
> > > David Morris
> > >
> > > On Monday, August 12, 2013, Ian Livingston wrote:
> > > Well, I still wouldn't dare speak for P, but, parsing the statement just a little, I will speak for myself, as someone undoubtedly influenced by Pynchon rightly and wrongly by turns.
> > >
> > > I have had the great displeasure of running afoul Westerners in Buddhist robes. These people who go bowing to the East in the certainty that they will attain enlightenment through Eastern teachings take with them all the shit they already believe, all the bunk they have learned in school, and all their prejudices and try to shoehorn those into teachings from sages who had no relation to the world we live in. They're like Cinderella's step-sisters but that they go on believing that they are wearing the glass slipper that never fit on their foot in the first place. The whole delusion results in comically tormented psyches. It's a lot like the people in the big Bible-thumping cults calling themselves Christians. They are ruled by their own Shadows, living in darkness that wastes the good any of them might accomplish in the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 8:47 AM, alice wellintown <alicewellintown at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Mencken was, as is the average western philosopher, satirist, pundit, blogger, spirit-hungry westerner...what have you, ignorant of the traditions of Eastern philosophy, religion, literature, art. But given the global problems we face, the urgency of many of these problems, climate change and population growth and depletion of the planet are three that are obvious, it seems foolish to ridicule those who would seriously turn to the East, if not for solutions or wisdom, for insights into how East and West may find common ground. This is not likely to succeed if the West continues to insist that all that science and math can not take the measure of is superstitious nonsense, Emersonian naked eyeball transparencies that once viewed through the superior lens of science are stripped of the rose and under the rose colorings of the observer and made black and white zeros and ones. Mencken is a good tonic for the youthful longings of those who read Herman Hesse, who fail to heed the wit of Voltaire, who live in what most would call the best of all possible worlds, and who run fast from the magic of their own traditions and into the trappings of ones they can never begin to make meaningful. But his scientism is now endemic and allied with a haughty exceptionalism. A little humility is called for. The planets can not be charmed from the sky. We must observe them with our feet on the ground, but what Galileo tea