Edward Snowden, NSA whistleblower

[Rich Clavey]

What he said.
Keep 'em coming, Joe.



--- On Tue, 6/11/13, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> Subject: Re: Edward Snowden, NSA whistleblower
> To: "P-list List" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Date: Tuesday, June 11, 2013, 11:43 AM
> It's called denial, and particularly
> since the build -up to the Iraq war and the many betrayals
> of the Obama presidency it has become the  full time
> religion of huge swaths of the mainstream media. They are a
> bit confused at the moment because well, they didn't think
> they were terrorists just because they try to report what
> their own government does in a theoretically democratic
> system where even the military industrial complex has some
> accountability to the pesky people.
> I suppose that after killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
> whose nation never threatened or attacked us, a certain
> amount of denial helps you imagine that this was somehow
> heroic and that your killing and arrests of whistleblowers
> and torture are not really criminal at all but heroic acts
> of self defense and the promotion of democratic liberty.
> Denial is also useful in regard to the International
> mortgage scam from which the world is still reeling. 
> 
> "What, one wonders, did Snowden think the N.S.A. did?" Asks
> Tobit. The NSA are not and have not been - surprise,
> surprise Mr Tobit - actually tasked with spying on
> non-suspect citizens without a warrant, but gathering
> oversees intelligence. When Cheney proposed this program
> under the title Total Information Awareness, the reaction
> across the country was, and I quote," no fucking way" and
> the idea was canned. The NSA is supposed to be the
> Electronic version of the CIA( an organization that has no
> constitutional basis and a long history of crime with very
> little that looks particularly admirable) In that regard
> they are supposed to stay away from domestic
> surveillance  and respect 4th amendment rights.  
> The idea that everyone is being spied on may not be a
> surprise to Mr Tobit but somehow, even with a nation in
> denial, people across the nation are still shocked,
> especially on the heels of the seizure of reporters private
> communications. Obama would never have beat even the
> obnoxious asshole John McCain if he had run on implementing
> TIA, continuing to hold court released prisoners in
> Guantanamo, never prosecuting financial fraud, and murdering
> teenagers because they have the wrong father.  
> 
> The progress of fascism requires massive denial, loyalty to
> power, and fear.  Having fun yet?
> 
> The truth is that the NSA started and has grown shrouded in
> secrecy and it is time for a democratic review. Aren't you
> really saying Mr. Tobit and Musikar that this totalitarian
> police surveillance is OK and a sound interpretation of
> constitutional law?? ?  
> On Jun 11, 2013, at 10:29 AM, Ian Livingston wrote:
> 
> > There will, of course, be a strong campaign to malign
> anyone who speaks publicly and strongly against government
> abuse of power.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Henry M <scuffling at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/06/edward-snowden-nsa-leaker-is-no-hero.html
> > Just sayin'. 
> > 
> > Yours truly,
> > ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
> > Henry Musikar, CISSP
> > http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> > Obama clearly promised to stop and to prevent this
> warrantless spying and clearly had the power either to stop
> it or to expose and oppose it.  Instead he has excused
> it, endorsed it, funded it and expanded it. He has gone
> after reporters and employees who expose  the truth
> about drones and spying or  who oppose abuses of
> power.
> > "Fix it, " you say
> > But how will such abuse of the public trust  be
> fixed if it  is never exposed to the light of public
> scrutiny? That is what Snowden had the courage to do at
> great personal risk. He and Bradley Manning are far more
> loyal to the constitution and to the idea of democratic
> accountability than Obama, who has proven time after time to
> be a coward and a liar. He has never offered anything but an
> image, brand loyalty to a product that does not exist, his
> true loyalties the same as Bush: bankers, military
> contractors, HMOs, the CIA, offshore bank accounts, drone
> warfare, secrecy. surveillance, fracking, big oil,
> Guantanamo, corporate money destroying popular democracy,
> secret courts, even racial profiling has continued
> unchecked.
> > 
> > 
> > On Jun 10, 2013, at 7:46 PM, Henry M wrote:
> > 
> > > Obama didn't put it in place, and has suggested
> that legislators restrict the unlimited freedom to do
> anything as long as it relates to terrorism.  I'm not
> okay with the spying, but I'm not naïve.  It's the
> natural extension of a process that has been going on for
> thousands of years.  Fix it, but don't pretend to be
> shocked to find gambling going on here.
> > >
> > > Yours truly,
> > > ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
> > > Henry Musikar, CISSP
> > > http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Joseph Tracy
> <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> > > Snowden did go to his superiors and they told him
> to drop it. Thomas Drake went to his "superiors" and stayed
> entirely within legal processes and his superiors accused
> him as a lawbreaker( he won in court, but was personally
> devastated). Colleen Rowley went to her FBI superiors with
> information that would very likely have prevented 9-11 and
> she was told to shut up .  Did you side with Bush when
> William Binney exposed the then clearly illegal NSA spying
> or Obama who promised it wouldn't happen if he was
> president?  The 4th amendment cannot be repealed by
> executive fiat or a law of congress.  When criminals
> are running the show and breaking laws, compliance is little
> more than just following orders. Totalitarian states always
> give themselves the power of law and this system of
> universal spying is exactly what Orwell, Kafka and history
> shows as the core methodology of totalitarian police
> states.
> > >
> > > You hated Bush but when Obama does the exact same
> things you approve. Why?
> > >
> > > On Jun 10, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Henry M wrote:
> > >
> > >> Whether or not you like the results of
> Snowden's revelation, he's certainly is closer to being a
> whistle-blower than Manning.  Many people who have
> never handled sensitive information miss an important
> element of what employees, government or otherwise, are told
> vis-a-vis whistle-blowing, which is the requirement to bring
> the problem to one's superiors or to some office specially
> designated for receiving such information.
> > >>
> > >> If Snowden had done so, he probably would have
> been informed that while he, and many other people, may have
> philosophical (and perhaps moral) concerns about the NSA
> surveilance progam, it wasn't illegal and it wasn't against
> government or program policy, direction, or charter, things
> that Manning is too apparently too young and mixed-up to
> understand, but which someone in Snowden's former positon
> should.
> > >>
> > >> However much you may like them and the results
> of what they've done, Snowden and Manning broke the law and
> were aware of the consequence of doing so. That there are
> bankers who broke the law (many just did very wrong things)
> and who should be prosecuted in what would be very
> complicated cases does not, in a nation of laws, give other
> people such as Snowden and Manning, a free pass.
> > >>
> > >> Yours truly,
> > >> ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
> > >> Henry Musikar, CISSP
> > >> http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:39 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >> i can accept the release of what the NSA has
> been up to with wiretapping and the like  but if this
> guy also gave out secrets about US plans regarding
> cyberattack strategies/defense I think that's something he
> should be prosecuted for
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
>