9-11 box cutters 11 september utility knives

Tue Nov 26 17:56:23 CST 2013

I do not think Horst's explanations of the above are debunked at all.

Horst is a Midwestern emotional silo, a charming 1% (many are) who does
not even give Maxine money once they are divorced. Even when he 
keep showing up and she can't forget; can't resist. 

About this we might recall the offhand line about nostalgia---Maxine lives it
with Horst, it seems. And it is not a positive line (about nostalgia).

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:03 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:

Thanks for the explanation!

Yet still. In what way does the fact that Horst can't explain why he 
wasn't in his office discredit his considerations about put options and 
lopsided put-to-call ratios? Are these considerations "debunked"? Is 
Horst? Where?

Not saying that 'the actual nature of 11 September' is the primary theme 
of "Bleeding Edge" (or that Pynchon knows more about it than you or me), 
but neither is this novel an anti-truther-satire. Not even in the case 
of March.

On 26.11.2013 14:51, Markekohut wrote:
> Even midwestern Lutherans were not at the towers that day, P is " saying" in some sense. That is a small novelistic point about one conspiratorial belief.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 26, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen<lorentzen at hotmail.de>  wrote:
>
>> I'm not convinced.
>>
>> Especially enigmatic I find your reference to Horst's ethno-cultural background ("he's a Lutheran, not a Jew or a Saudi"). What does this have to do with his trustworthyness re the debated issue?
>>
>>
>> On 25.11.2013 21:56, Fiona Shnapple wrote:
>>> Great. A page and passage for a change.
>>>
>>> Turn back to we are re introduced to Horst. On page 21. How does Horst
>>> do his job so well. He makes a ton of money trading commodities.
>>> Risky, rough and tumble business. He trades in the  Chicago Pits. We
>>> learn he is a clam, silent type, emotionless dude from the Midwest,
>>> but he fights like the devil in the pits and makes deals, and he is
>>> not afraid to slam the rules into the boards to get a hat trick. And
>>> he does score hat tricks.  In fact, he has some kind of magic, so he
>>> knows how commodities around the world will behave (21). In other
>>> words, he trades futures and he can see into it as far as the price of
>>> commodities goes. Not a bad gift if you can get it and keep it. And
>>> he's kept it, for he enjoys and error free history.
>>>
>>> Unless his gift or luck, or combination of both is so rare nobody else
>>> can make bets and make a pile? But that's not true. Hell, the Dow
>>> Jones Transportation Index hit a triple top. And every fool know how
>>> high oil prices were and how the airlines have an inverse relationship
>>> to the price of Bent and WTI.
>>>
>>> And, anytime a hug longshot is out there, somebody is gonna put some
>>> money on it. No, Horst can't explain why he wasn't in his office that
>>> day when the towers were struck. And he's a Lutheran not a Jew or a
>>> Saudi.
>>>
>>> Pynchon debunks these conspiracy theories; these divisive theories
>>> that say the Jews got out, the Arabs got out....the Bush people got
>>> out. He debunks them and piles them in the landfill with the Bush
>>> attack on Iraq.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
>>> <lorentzen at hotmail.de>   wrote:
>>>> Pynchon might "debunk" March to a certain degree.
>>>>
>>>> But Horst? I don't see that.
>>>>
>>>> "This is the Chicago Exchange, toward the end of last week, see? there was a
>>>> sudden abnormal surge of put options on United Airlines. Thousands of puts,
>>>> not a heck of a lot of calls. Now, today, the same thing happens for
>>>> American Airlines." (p. 315)
>>>>
>>>> "HORST MEANTIME IS PUZZLED ABOUT something else. 'Remember the week before
>>>> this happened, all those put options on United and American Airlines? Which
>>>> turned out to be exactly the two airlines that got hijacked? Well, it seems
>>>> on that Thursday and Friday there were also lopsided put-to-call ratios for
>>>> Morgan Stanley. Merrill Lynch. couple others like them, all tenants of the
>>>> Trade Center. As a fraud investigator, what does that suggest to you?'" (pp.
>>>> 323-324)
>>>>
>>>> Horst emphasizes that he's trying "to keep hold of my common sense" (p.
>>>> 324); in general he's portrayed as non-hysterical and intelligent.
>>>>
>>>> So what's your point?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 25.11.2013 11:21, Fiona Shnapple wrote:
>>>>> JT sez,
>>>>>> So even though Pynchon, in BE does suggest some sinister possibilities
>>>>>> along the lines of insider foreknowledge,  almost no one on the p->list
>>>>>> wants to even think about, hear about, or talk about it in anything but a
>>>>>> very reactionary  and fundamentally ad hominem way.
>>>>> He doesn't suggests them; his characters do; he debunks them.  Why?
>>>>> That is the question. The answer is not too easy to get at. You, and
>>>>> the others who attack you, ignore the book, for the most part. It's
>>>>> not easy to argue that P suggests something sinister, not with this
>>>>> book. Give me pages and I'll argue against such a reading.
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=nchon-l
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> -
>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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