Pynchon synchronicity learned today

[John Bailey]

I reckon you're right about P not being sure what to conclusively
think about it all. Thinking conclusively would be adding to the
problem.

There was some great talk here years and years ago about how even the
"keep cool but care" of V. was early Pynchon grappling with the issue
and trying to come up with a system for living that might work, but
that it felt mawkish and out-of-place given how thoroughly he would
later reject any such universal notions. Maybe he embraced the
possibility that you can live a great life without imposing any
absolute order on it. Also part of the reason some have found fault
with the later family-centric novels, as if he is shrugging and saying
"in the end, family's all ya got."

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 9:16 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> I completely agree with your rant.  You hit the nail squarely. Those "power
> of believing" cults are ultimately heartless and enslaving.
>
> I think Pynchon sees multitudes of system both oppressively overt and
> suspiciously hidden, and I don't think he knows what to conclusively think
> about them.  Chaos and meaninglessness and freedom or Order and enslavement?
> We are left with no answer.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:04 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I remember I knew a few people who got way too into the Celestine
>> Prophecy back when it first came out. There was a cultish aspect to
>> the book, which followers would explain was more than just fiction -
>> it was a guide to life. And the guide seemed f--king obnoxious to me.
>> They would start pointing out people with the apparent 'poor me'
>> problem the book describes, which is such a handy way of shutting down
>> another person's real suffering, and treads dangerously close to an
>> Ayn Rand vision of the world in which suffering is solely the fault
>> and responsibility of the sufferer. Similar deal with that other culty
>> fad, The Secret. If you claim that a person's life is entirely formed
>> by their attitude, then anyone experiencing misfortune has no one to
>> blame but themselves, right? Thank goodness there's no such thing as
>> structural inequality, entrenched bias, institutional power and the
>> like!
>>
>> Anyway, rant over, back to COL49: I think Pynchon is trying to throw
>> shade on any kind of organising system that may be behind things.
>> Conspiracies are the big one, but also religion, state power,
>> knowledge heirarchies, etc. They're all potentially suspect and even
>> the "plot" of the traditional novel is potentially pulling a dodgy
>> move on the reader, selling something we don't quite know we're
>> buying.
>>
>> New Age novels like Celestine, occult beliefs and your garden variety
>> conspiracy theory are all trying to create a Grand Narrative that will
>> help us explain our mad existence, whereas in my view Pynchon is
>> trying to undermine the very notion of the Grand Narrative. But he
>> sure knows the attraction of one.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:11 AM, Perry Noid <coolwithdoc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > It's like there is this intersection between new age, occult beliefs and
>> > conspiracy theories. That's what I wanna know more about, that
>> > intersection.
>> >
>> > On Dec 5, 2014 9:05 AM, "Perry Noid" <coolwithdoc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Ah cool thanks. Specifically I want to know why Oedipa isn't like the
>> >> main
>> >> character from Celestine Prophecy who begins to notice strange
>> >> coincidences
>> >> and determines ultimately that it's due to some cosmic force or
>> >> collective
>> >> unconscious. Instead it's a possible conspiracy. They both have doubts,
>> >> I
>> >> thought about that and I don't think it's about having doubt. Oedipa
>> >> feels
>> >> more self aware than whatsisface from Celestine so maybe that's
>> >> something or
>> >> just a side effect of being a postmodern novel. I don't know, I'm no
>> >> literature buff.
>> >>
>> >> I know one of them is a pretty good book and the other one is just
>> >> kinda
>> >> shitty (no offense to any fans here but it was just too convenient plot
>> >> wise
>> >> and pretty boring but...whatever, I just didn't like the book). But
>> >> when
>> >> does the belief in synchronicity become paranoia? Or if that is even
>> >> possible
>> >>
>> >> On Dec 5, 2014 1:41 AM, "Mark Kohut" <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Morris knows Jung, so follow his words. My use was lax, or almost a
>> >>> joke
>> >>> if I want to defend myself. The Wikipedia article on it seems good,
>> >>> detailed.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>>
>> >>> On Dec 4, 2014, at 8:52 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Synchronicity doesn't primarily mean an occurrence of extreme
>> >>> coincidence.  To my mind it means more a noticing significant chance
>> >>> occurances that are the normal, unnoticed status quo. They seem
>> >>> uncanny when
>> >>> we notice them, but they are actually the constant unnoticed norm.
>> >>>
>> >>> David Morris
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Read Jung's introduction to Richard Wilhelm's translation of the I
>> >>>> Ching
>> >>>> in which he describes the significance of the chance throwing of the
>> >>>> yarrow
>> >>>> stick to get a read on one's fortune.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Goes back to Jung, as far as I know. ( which means if it goes back
>> >>>>> further, I don't know where).
>> >>>>> Essay In his Collected Works somewhere.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Dec 4, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Perry Noid <coolwithdoc at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A friend gave me a copy of Celestine Prophecy to read not too long
>> >>>>> ago.
>> >>>>> Never knew anything about it until I read it. She said it is one of
>> >>>>> her
>> >>>>> favorite books. It isn't very long so I just read it. No comment on
>> >>>>> that.
>> >>>>> Anyhooz, I decided I'd give her Lot 49 for Xmas and tell her it's a
>> >>>>> similar
>> >>>>> book and that she might like it; see what happens.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Does anyone have any suggestions or links to a monograph, essay, or
>> >>>>> a
>> >>>>> book somewhere on paranoia and synchronicity?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Dec 4, 2014 2:07 PM, "Mark Kohut" <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> His time in the Navy overlapped with Bill Cosby's.
>> >>>>>> -
>> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
>
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l