Pynchon synchronicity learned today

Fri Dec 5 16:36:59 CST 2014

I can look up the exact quote when I get home.
On Dec 5, 2014 2:35 PM, "Perry Noid" <coolwithdoc at gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree with your thoughts on Celestine. I'm having a hard time dealing
> with the fact that someone who I didn't think would be so in to something
> like this would claim it's her favorite book. Came as kind of a shock to me.
>
> There was something in Gravitys Rainbow Domination and Freedom along the
> lines of "the deterministic drive towards organization necessarily leads to
> unfreedom." Something like that.
> On Dec 5, 2014 2:30 PM, "John Bailey" <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I reckon you're right about P not being sure what to conclusively
>> think about it all. Thinking conclusively would be adding to the
>> problem.
>>
>> There was some great talk here years and years ago about how even the
>> "keep cool but care" of V. was early Pynchon grappling with the issue
>> and trying to come up with a system for living that might work, but
>> that it felt mawkish and out-of-place given how thoroughly he would
>> later reject any such universal notions. Maybe he embraced the
>> possibility that you can live a great life without imposing any
>> absolute order on it. Also part of the reason some have found fault
>> with the later family-centric novels, as if he is shrugging and saying
>> "in the end, family's all ya got."
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 9:16 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I completely agree with your rant.  You hit the nail squarely. Those
>> "power
>> > of believing" cults are ultimately heartless and enslaving.
>> >
>> > I think Pynchon sees multitudes of system both oppressively overt and
>> > suspiciously hidden, and I don't think he knows what to conclusively
>> think
>> > about them.  Chaos and meaninglessness and freedom or Order and
>> enslavement?
>> > We are left with no answer.
>> >
>> > David Morris
>> >
>> > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:04 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I remember I knew a few people who got way too into the Celestine
>> >> Prophecy back when it first came out. There was a cultish aspect to
>> >> the book, which followers would explain was more than just fiction -
>> >> it was a guide to life. And the guide seemed f--king obnoxious to me.
>> >> They would start pointing out people with the apparent 'poor me'
>> >> problem the book describes, which is such a handy way of shutting down
>> >> another person's real suffering, and treads dangerously close to an
>> >> Ayn Rand vision of the world in which suffering is solely the fault
>> >> and responsibility of the sufferer. Similar deal with that other culty
>> >> fad, The Secret. If you claim that a person's life is entirely formed
>> >> by their attitude, then anyone experiencing misfortune has no one to
>> >> blame but themselves, right? Thank goodness there's no such thing as
>> >> structural inequality, entrenched bias, institutional power and the
>> >> like!
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, rant over, back to COL49: I think Pynchon is trying to throw
>> >> shade on any kind of organising system that may be behind things.
>> >> Conspiracies are the big one, but also religion, state power,
>> >> knowledge heirarchies, etc. They're all potentially suspect and even
>> >> the "plot" of the traditional novel is potentially pulling a dodgy
>> >> move on the reader, selling something we don't quite know we're
>> >> buying.
>> >>
>> >> New Age novels like Celestine, occult beliefs and your garden variety
>> >> conspiracy theory are all trying to create a Grand Narrative that will
>> >> help us explain our mad existence, whereas in my view Pynchon is
>> >> trying to undermine the very notion of the Grand Narrative. But he
>> >> sure knows the attraction of one.
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:11 AM, Perry Noid <coolwithdoc at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> > It's like there is this intersection between new age, occult beliefs
>> and
>> >> > conspiracy theories. That's what I wanna know more about, that
>> >> > intersection.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Dec 5, 2014 9:05 AM, "Perry Noid" <coolwithdoc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ah cool thanks. Specifically I want to know why Oedipa isn't like
>> the
>> >> >> main
>> >> >> character from Celestine Prophecy who begins to notice strange
>> >> >> coincidences
>> >> >> and determines ultimately that it's due to some cosmic force or
>> >> >> collective
>> >> >> unconscious. Instead it's a possible conspiracy. They both have
>> doubts,
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> thought about that and I don't think it's about having doubt. Oedipa
>> >> >> feels
>> >> >> more self aware than whatsisface from Celestine so maybe that's
>> >> >> something or
>> >> >> just a side effect of being a postmodern novel. I don't know, I'm no
>> >> >> literature buff.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I know one of them is a pretty good book and the other one is just
>> >> >> kinda
>> >> >> shitty (no offense to any fans here but it was just too convenient
>> plot
>> >> >> wise
>> >> >> and pretty boring but...whatever, I just didn't like the book). But
>> >> >> when
>> >> >> does the belief in synchronicity become paranoia? Or if that is even
>> >> >> possible
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Dec 5, 2014 1:41 AM, "Mark Kohut" <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Morris knows Jung, so follow his words. My use was lax, or almost a
>> >> >>> joke
>> >> >>> if I want to defend myself. The Wikipedia article on it seems good,
>> >> >>> detailed.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Sent from my iPad
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Dec 4, 2014, at 8:52 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Synchronicity doesn't primarily mean an occurrence of extreme
>> >> >>> coincidence.  To my mind it means more a noticing significant
>> chance
>> >> >>> occurances that are the normal, unnoticed status quo. They seem
>> >> >>> uncanny when
>> >> >>> we notice them, but they are actually the constant unnoticed norm.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> David Morris
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Read Jung's introduction to Richard Wilhelm's translation of the I
>> >> >>>> Ching
>> >> >>>> in which he describes the significance of the chance throwing of
>> the
>> >> >>>> yarrow
>> >> >>>> stick to get a read on one's fortune.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> On Thursday, December 4, 2014, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Goes back to Jung, as far as I know. ( which means if it goes
>> back
>> >> >>>>> further, I don't know where).
>> >> >>>>> Essay In his Collected Works somewhere.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Sent from my iPad
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> On Dec 4, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Perry Noid <coolwithdoc at gmail.com>
>> >> >>>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> A friend gave me a copy of Celestine Prophecy to read not too
>> long
>> >> >>>>> ago.
>> >> >>>>> Never knew anything about it until I read it. She said it is one
>> of
>> >> >>>>> her
>> >> >>>>> favorite books. It isn't very long so I just read it. No comment
>> on
>> >> >>>>> that.
>> >> >>>>> Anyhooz, I decided I'd give her Lot 49 for Xmas and tell her
>> it's a
>> >> >>>>> similar
>> >> >>>>> book and that she might like it; see what happens.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Does anyone have any suggestions or links to a monograph, essay,
>> or
>> >> >>>>> a
>> >> >>>>> book somewhere on paranoia and synchronicity?
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> On Dec 4, 2014 2:07 PM, "Mark Kohut" <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> His time in the Navy overlapped with Bill Cosby's.
>> >> >>>>>> -
>> >> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >
>> >
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20141205/5f220250/attachment.html>