Zinn & his disciples

Sat Dec 13 17:27:25 CST 2014

 My intent was historic info about Brazil and how the torture/murder state came about, not compulsory reading lists. As far as what you know, I can only say that I have read enough to know that you highly overrate yourself. 
On Dec 13, 2014, at 8:20 AM, alice malice wrote:

> I'm old and my eyes are bad so I have only so many years of reading
> left. Should I really put Klein on my reading list? That's up to me. I
> can't, anymore than you can, judge a book by its blurbs and reviews,
> but I do it anyway. I have been reading for a very long time, and my
> reading is more selective now. I'm sure that a book like Klein's won't
> teach me anything, won't excite or entertain or impress me. It might
> irritate me. I know more about America than Kelin, or you, Joseph. I
> don't need Zinn anymore. Been there long ago and back again.  So,
> excuse me if I reject a book I know I won't like. I's not an approach
> to history.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> The old" I won't read it because I know it's no good" approach to history. So far you have not challenged directly any inaccuracies by Naomi Klein or Howard Zinn.  In fact I could have used Wikipedia for a source on my comment below, but Klein provides thorough documentation.
>> 
>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 6:13 AM, alice malice wrote:
>> 
>>> That's not an easy trick to pull off. I doubt I'd give it more than a
>>> few minutes before I would chuck this book to the curb. If this is the
>>> kind of thing Zinn inspires, that's too bad.
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>> In Shock Doctrine, Naomi Klein goes into detail about the connections between the Brazilian coup/ military dictatorship and the Milton Friedman economic school in Chicago whose proteges were part of the reign of torture. The CIA were big players in this one too.
>>>> On Dec 11, 2014, at 7:32 AM, alice malice wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I like Dilma's response. Sometimes, as Van Morrison says, we cry. Not
>>>>> like Johnnie Ray...
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/11/world/americas/torture-report-on-brazilian-dictatorship-is-released.html?_r=0
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 7:28 AM, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> One of my favorites. A woman with only half her ass, that almost as
>>>>>> funny as Saci, the one-legged cartoon lad.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saci_%28Brazilian_folklore%29
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> will that redeem us Uncle Remus?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 6:55 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Read Candide.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 10:42 PM, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I love Zinn for writing about the people who built America, but I
>>>>>>>> dislike his simple minded approach to debunking the orthodox history
>>>>>>>> that, he and his disciples, and so many others ... stuff into the
>>>>>>>> strawman. The problem, Zinn argues,  is not history but who tells it
>>>>>>>> and how. Of course, Zinn has an excellent  point: how we tell stories
>>>>>>>> and who tells them to whom is an excellent point to focus on, as any
>>>>>>>> high school history student knows.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> They also know that you can't do anything about history. It's history.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But you can teach people history, and, though I don't think history
>>>>>>>> ever repeats itself, it does, sometimes, as someone said, echo, and
>>>>>>>> so, by teaching it we might make things a bit better in the future,
>>>>>>>> and we might even solve some big problems.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I like to think the Beatles had it right when they said things are
>>>>>>>> getting better all the time. And they are. Zinn's history is too often
>>>>>>>> focused on how things are getting worse because of who has been
>>>>>>>> telling us a pack of lies.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The truth is, this kind of conspiracy theory approach to history, not
>>>>>>>> muckraking or truth finding, but radical debunking all the lies our
>>>>>>>> history teaches told us, assumes that we've been lied to all our lives
>>>>>>>> and, stupid people that we are, we believed the lies.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> First off, this is not 1955. This is not because Zinn awakened us,
>>>>>>>> but, as Zinn shows us in his history of people, because countless
>>>>>>>> others made and wrote and spoke history that countered the American
>>>>>>>> propaganda books and broadcasts, and because  we are not stupid people
>>>>>>>> who suck in the slime from the TV set and salute the flag. Though we
>>>>>>>> have our moments of hysteria and jingoism, and even decades of
>>>>>>>> retrograde (Nixon to Reagan revolution plus Bush Clinton and the black
>>>>>>>> president ...etc.), we won't be fooled again. So Zinn is history. And
>>>>>>>> knocking Fox news or these other idiots in the "press" is a waste of
>>>>>>>> time. Unless of course, you really believe that we are still a nation
>>>>>>>> of slime sucking idiots.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The shining light on the hill is capitalism. America is the Empire.
>>>>>>>> You live in it. I don't love capital anymore than the next poor
>>>>>>>> person, but you can't fight the Fed, or a coordination of central
>>>>>>>> banks or the maniacs who run nation states. That's over.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Buy oil stocks. They are cheap now. Growth will never increase enough
>>>>>>>> to improve your welfare. You must own assets. Hate it, but don't be a
>>>>>>>> fool. Hell, you've read Zinn. So even if you were a fool in 1955, you
>>>>>>>> been educated now.
>>>>>>>> -
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