NP - Krugman: Petrothoughts (Via Kevin Drom)

[alice malice]

Easy for the Empire, America doesn't have a history. Don't believe
that Chomsky guy, he's constantly harping about Indians, Slaves,
Vietnam, the Americas, Oil, Iraq, Afghanistan...just movies and TV.

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 9:47 PM, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's impossible to know the truth. Though you admit this, Thomas, it's
> fairly obvious that your summary is limited, as you say, by the
> propaganda you read and favor. So forget about your claim to the
> truth, what you provided is your opinion of what happened, a claim to
> history.
>
>
> What makes me question your account is that you find little or no
> fault with Russia or Putin. Your hatred of Nazis seems, as others have
> stated here, a bit zealous, who doesn't hate Nazis, but it is silly in
> this context because it is the drum you keep banging....the
> Nazis...supported by the Americans.... even as these Nazi groups have
> been pushed to the margins of the struggle, and what you really  hate
> is the fact that America can stick its nose into the affairs of
> nations on Russia's doorstep, or in Germany's backyard. Here you have
> a good argument. The rest is just speculation and blood and smoke.
> Maybe someday we will know more, but now we have to deal with the
> present, not the past. Not an easy thing for Russia to do just now,
> but not so hard for Germany, for Ukraine.
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Thomas Eckhardt
> <thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>> Thanks for the olive branch, David. I am sure that we can
>> discuss this in a civil manner, keeping in mind that one person's truth
>> is another person's propaganda.
>>
>> I don't expect you to reply to this. Just had to get it off my chest once
>> more and practice my English.
>>
>>> Resolution 758 is a statement against Russia's annexing Eastern
>>> Ukraine. Any further analysis is nitpicking.
>>
>>
>> Except, of course, Russia did not annex Eastern Ukraine.
>>
>> You are mixing up the two talking points which are
>> ceaselessly being rammed down our throats: "Russia's annexation of Crimea"
>> and "Russia's invasion of Eastern Ukraine".
>>
>> One cannot understand any of this without looking again at what happened in
>> Kiev in February.
>>
>>
>> Maidan
>>
>> There were legitimate pro-European
>> protests against a corrupt, albeit democratically elected
>> president.
>>
>> The support of various Western politicians,
>> among them members of government, for the protesters,
>> however, amounted to meddling in the internal affairs of
>> another country in violation of international law.
>>
>> The protests were then hijacked by ultra-nationalists and
>> right-wing extremists, mainly under the black and red
>> banner of the "Right Sector" (a group consisting
>> of various paramilitary right-wing organisations including the neo-Nazi
>> "Patriot of Ukraine").
>>
>> These people escalated the
>> protests, and it is almost certain that some of them committed the mass
>> murder of about 70 peaceful protesters and policemen alike by snipers in
>> order to
>> sabotage the agreement of February 20 (there can be no absolute certainty
>> because the Ukrainian government has
>> obstructed the investigations from the beginning).
>>
>> It worked. The incensed crowd rejected the agreement
>> negotiated between the opposition parties (including the fascist Svoboda),
>> Yanukovich and the foreign ministers of France,
>> Poland and Germany and witnessed by the special envoy of
>> the Russian Federation. The militias then took over government
>> buildings and adorned them with wolf's hooks, Celtic
>> crosses and posters of their hero Stepan Bandera. Yanukovich fled in fear
>> for his life.
>>
>> What would the agreement of February 20
>> have provided for? Amongst other things:
>>
>> -The formation of a national unity government within 10
>> days by the Signatories.
>>
>> -That the authorities and the opposition refrain from the
>> use of violence.
>>
>> -Presidential elections no later than December 2014
>>
>> -The handing over of illegal weapons within 24 hours.
>>
>> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/agreement-on-the-settlement-of-crisis-in-ukraine-full-text
>>
>> Sounds sensible to me.
>>
>> The mass murder on Maidan nixed that agreement. Yanukovich was impeached in
>> violation of the Ukrainian constitution. A new,
>> interim government was established and immediately acknowledged by the West.
>>
>> New Prime Minister Yatseniuk had been Victoria Nuland's candidate all along
>> as is evidenced by the famous "F*** the EU" phonecall.
>>
>> The interim government was a Banderist government
>> including right-wing extremists (Svoboda). I use the term
>> "Banderist" because nowadays it seems to include the more
>> moderate nationalists as well as the neo-Nazis. If you want to know more
>> about Stepan Bandera and, more generally, about relations between the U.S.
>> and Ukrainian Nazi collaborateurs, I recommend:
>>
>> http://www.archives.gov/iwg/reports/hitlers-shadow.pdf
>>
>> The common denominator of Banderists, from Tymoshenko's "Fatherland"
>> party to the fascist Svoboda, is hatred for Russians and
>> Russia.
>>
>> Eastern Ukraine is very close to Russia culturally and
>> geographically, and there are huge ethnic Russian majorities.
>> These people had voted Yanukovitch and his "Party of
>> Regions" into office. Despite this fact, as far as I can see, they were for
>> the most part as fed up with him as their compatriots in Western Ukraine. I
>> suspect they would have been able to live with a
>> government of national unity. They could not live with a
>> Banderist government.
>>
>> Especially not after the
>> events in Odessa on May 2 where at least 48 peaceful
>> federalists/separatists were murdered by nationalist
>> hooligans and neo-Nazis.
>>
>> You may have heard of this. It was called "a tragedy" in every respectable
>> Western news outlet. The culprits were rarely named.
>>
>> So people in Eastern Ukraine began to occupy town halls etc. In this
>> they were supported -- and here is some gratis information for you,
>> to use at your convenience -- by Russians, among them quite unsavoury
>> characters and even Russian fascists.
>>
>> Whether these people came on orders from the Russian
>> government or not is debatable. They deny it.
>>
>> None of which should take away from the fact that the course of action taken
>> in Eastern Ukraine was a direct result of events in Kiev. It was a reaction.
>>
>> And because it was a reaction to a coup/revolution it obviously had more
>> moral legitimacy to it than the violent protests on Maidan against a
>> democratically elected president. In other words:
>> If you think the ouster of Yanukovich was legitimate despite violating
>> the constitution you need to grant at least this kind of moral
>> legitimacy to the Eastern Ukrainian rebellion as well.
>>
>> The Ukrainian government rejected the Russian suggestion
>> to negotiate with the rebels, probably on the initiative
>> of the U.S., and started its so-called anti-terror
>> operation, meaning that it began killing its own people.
>>
>> This seems to be a serious crime when Assad does it
>> but the only sensible course of action when Poroshenko does it.
>>
>> From then on, when Western media and politicians talked about "Ukrainians",
>> "territorial sovereignity" "the will of the Ukrainian people" etc. they only
>> referred to the ones who supported Maidan, mainly Western Ukrainian
>> nationalists etc. But the people in Eastern Ukraine are also Ukrainians.
>>
>>
>> Crimea
>>
>> After the Banderist coup/revolution in Kiev, the autonomous republic
>> Crimea decided to have a referendum. The overwhelming majority voted for
>> secession from Ukraine and accession to the Russian Federation.
>>
>> From a legal perspective, this course of action violated the
>> principle of territorial integrity enshrined in
>> international law but was in accordance with the right to
>> self-determination also enshrined in international law. Kosovo might
>> serve as a comparison -- only that there was no referendum in Kosovo
>> even though Obama has falsely claimed there was.
>>
>> Russian soldiers from the Black Sea Fleet stationed in Crimea under
>> long-standing contracts with the Ukrainian government prevented the
>> Ukrainian army from interfering with the process. This was illegal, but it
>> prevented bloodshed.
>>
>> From a non-legal perspective, which is the perspective you have on Maidan,
>> the matter is clear: The overwhelming majority of the people in Crimea
>> agreed with the secession/accession --
>>
>>> Bottom line, the invasion was not justified by any real threat to
>>> anyone.
>>
>>
>> -- and they certainly did not regret their choice when
>> they saw what happened to the civilians
>> of whatever persuasion in Eastern Ukraine (the remains of
>> a football-playing teenager in a bucket, anyone? clusterbombs?).
>>
>> Most importantly, from my perspective, there were only two
>> casualties on Crimea. One Ukrainian soldier and one pro-Russian
>> activist were shot, probably by a young sniper from Maidan.
>>
>> If you want to call this "Russia's annexation of Crimea", so be it. But you
>> should at least acknowledge the circumstances I addressed: the right to
>> self-determination, the undisputable fact that the majority was in favour of
>> secession/accession, the lack of bloodshed.
>>
>>
>> Eastern Ukraine
>>
>> As for "Russia's invasion of Eastern Ukraine", I point you
>> to this nice piece by Dmitri Orlov, "How can you tell
>> whether Russia has invaded Ukraine?"
>>
>> http://cluborlov.blogspot.de/2014/08/how-can-you-tell-whether-russia-has.html
>>
>> You do not believe that Russian troops have marched into
>> Eastern Ukraine with tanks and air support, do you?
>> Because this has not happened.
>>
>> What has happened and continues to
>> happen is that Russia supports the federalists/separatists
>> by means of Russian soldiers "on holiday", logistics,
>> intelligence, certainly also, though as yet unproven, tanks
>> and heavy weapons. All in all, Russia is conducting a covert war in reaction
>> to the Western-backed coup/revolution in Kiev. Putin has stated frankly on
>> German television that Russia will not allow the rebels to fail.
>>
>> Not nice, but certainly no reason for the U.S., of all nations, to get its
>> knickers into a twist.
>>
>> Especially so, I repeat, as Russia only reacts to what it perceives as an
>> existential threat. The outcome of the anti-terror operation of the
>> Ukrainian government could be the stationing of nuclear missiles along
>> Russia's borders.
>>
>> Russia has also consistently, from the agreement of February 20 to this day,
>> stated that it does not want to annex Eastern Ukraine and supports
>> federalisation. Russia has also consistently been arguing for talks between
>> the rebels in Eastern Ukraine and the government in Kiev.
>>
>> Of course, Russia may be lying.
>>
>> Kiev did not want to negotiate. Instead the government sent troops and
>> "volunteer battalions" against the rebels. When Poroshenko at some point
>> seemed inclined to prolong the then existing ceasefire, the neo-Nazis
>> threatened him with another Maidan. The slaughter continued.
>>
>> Now more than 4,000 people are dead, among them many civilians, and a
>> million people displaced (800,000 of them went to Russia).
>>
>> One has to stretch the meaning of "invasion" beyond breaking point to be
>> able to claim that Russia has invaded Eastern Ukraine. But certainly
>> Russians have been meddling in Eastern Ukraine from the start, and certainly
>> the Russian government does support the separatists. Still, the aggression
>> against Eastern Ukraine did not start in Moscow, it started in Kiev.
>>
>>
>> So, West good, Russia bad? I don't think so. It is a difficult and dangerous
>> situation which should be de-escalated as quickly as possible in order to
>> save lives and prevent further escalation.
>>
>> Resolution 758 does exactly the opposite. Along with Obama's and Cameron's
>> unbelievable statements that "Ebola, Russian aggression and ISIS" are the
>> greatest threats to world peace, the resolution is an example of
>> particularly reckless warmongering.
>>
>> As far as the media coverage of the conflict is concerned: We have always
>> been at war with Eastasia.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> P.S. I don't fear Nazis, I hate them. The Western media have constantly
>> downplayed the neo-Nazi threat in Ukraine. But these people are not on the
>> sidelines, no matter what the media tell you. It was them that toppled
>> Yanukovich, and it is them that spearhead the "anti-terror operation" --
>> which was originally directed by Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the, yes,
>> Social-Nationalist Party.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l