Ukraine

Joseph Tracy brook7 at sover.net
Sat Dec 27 19:39:06 CST 2014


T Eckhardt : actual investigatory news and telling information. That such an agreement exists undermines the concept of international law and reminds me of the lies and avoidance of truth by US MSM before the Iraq war.

  al mal: opinionated blather. apparently doesn't give a shit who murdered these travelers, If people starve, or anything else but NYT  self flattering good guy bad guy crap.


On Dec 27, 2014, at 6:05 PM, alice malice wrote:

> Second, Putin is not a good chess player. He's proven again and again,
> that he won't take his good fortune and invest it, but squanders it,
> and that he is driven by ideological nostalgia, and we know how weak
> that is in the long run. His popularity will wane when he exhausts his
> reserves and the USD/Rub collapse continues with the oil collapse. So,
> no cold war, Putin will need to go because it will be too difficult
> for him to make deal with anyone, as the world sees that he is not be
> trusted.
> 
> Trusting the Empire, that is America, is not a good idea either, but
> what choice has the world got now?
> 
> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 6:01 PM, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Why complain about the press. We have so much more than the main and
>> popular press.
>> 
>> The Press on both sides, for anyone who is not an idiot, are predictable.
>> 
>> In the US, the so-called mainstream press, as we would expect, says
>> Putin is to blame for most everything.
>> 
>> And, there is some truth in this smear campaign, Putin is to blame for
>> many of the problems and he has painted himself into a corner now, and
>> as the markets have turned against him, he looks more and more the
>> part, it will be great if he falls....so the story goes.....
>> 
>> but most of what we see in the press, on all sides,   is quite
>> predictable and useless to anyone who wants to learn what has
>> happened, how we got here, where we are, and what is likely to happen.
>> 
>> The defenders of Putin, the Anti-American Western Press, blames Obama
>> and NATO & Co, the EU..etc. ....again quite predictable. Many in this
>> group are call the situation a new cold war, a war that we in the West
>> started and one that may involve more than a Cold Peace, but an
>> escalation of the conflict in and around Ukraine that may involve the
>> use of Nukes.
>> 
>> The terms and phrases are parsed and shift, so home rulers are
>> separatists and nationalists are Neo-Nazis...etc., as each side tars
>> the other with blackest evils out of the European history books.
>> 
>> Of course, some of the parsing is not by way of lectures from the
>> West, and long-winded chest thumping speeches by the little bear with
>> a big ego, some has come with bombs, blood, bodies, death. So, putting
>> the words back into meanings the have slipped the chances of
>> establishing trust and talks, is now more difficult to do. Who shot
>> the plane down, like Crimea, and  Ukraine, is not a matter to be
>> solved, the larger issues have to be dealt with. Bu the distrust will
>> keep these matters in front, and the conspiracy buffs will serve up
>> their bitter counter punch etc.
>> 
>> We don't have a new cold war, but the plane recalls the cold war, when
>> so many who were not party to the conflict got caught in the crossfire
>> and so, some have tried to say this is only the beginning of what of a
>> cold war that will be like the last one. This is stupid propaganda,
>> though its backed by some fairly heavy scholars out there, Steven
>> Cohen.
>> 
>> First, Russian is not a significant player any longer. It is an
>> emerging economy, supplier of energy,  with nukes and a huge defense
>> budget and an army.  It's no longer a worthy adversary to the Empire
>> of America and its economic partners. This conflict is economic,
>> primarily, Ukraine will tilt West and Russia will suck wind.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Thomas Eckhardt
>> <thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>>> Thank you.
>>> 
>>> To me it seems that it is once again not the crime but the cover-up that
>>> gives the real culprits away:
>>> 
>>> 'Under IATA Rules, the parties responsible for the investigation would be
>>> the Malaysians, as owners of the plane and home country of the airline, and
>>> the Ukrainians over whose territory the atrocity occurred.  It was the Dutch
>>> however, who took the lead role, citing two facts:  the plane had departed
>>> from Amsterdam; and they had suffered the largest number of their nationals
>>> as victims.  The Malaysians were initially excluded from the inquiry for
>>> reasons that have never been satisfactorily explained.  They were finally
>>> invited to join the Joint Inquiry on 2 December 2014.
>>> 
>>> Instead, the initial inquiry group consisted of Ukraine, the Netherlands,
>>> Australia and Belgium.  The Australians suffered the third largest loss of
>>> life but had no standing to be one of the investigatory nations, and
>>> certainly less of a claim than the Malaysians.  The Australian Prime
>>> Minister and some other politicians had been at the forefront of making
>>> extreme allegations against Russia and President Putin.  Why Belgium was
>>> included remains a mystery.
>>> 
>>> On 8 August 2014 these four investigating nations signed an agreement that
>>> the results of the investigation would not be published unless all four
>>> countries agreed.  *This gave one of the prime suspects in the atrocity,
>>> Ukraine, an effective veto over any investigations result that attributed
>>> blame to them.*  This is an astonishing situation and probably without
>>> precedent in modern air crash investigations.
>>> 
>>> More significantly however, is that the existence of this secret agreement
>>> was not announced by the Australian government, nor to the best of my
>>> knowledge has any report about the existence of the agreement or its
>>> extraordinary terms, been published in any mainstream publication.
>>> 
>>> The Dutch magazine Elsevier, under Dutch Freedom of Information laws, sought
>>> a copy of the agreement.  On 19 November they announced that the request had
>>> been refused on the grounds that it “could endanger the relations with other
>>> countries involved.”
>>> 
>>> An Australian citizen (name redacted) wrote to the Minister for
>>> Infrastructure and Regional Development (Deputy Prime Minister Warren Truss)
>>> seeking a copy of the agreement.  By letter dated 15 October 2014 the
>>> Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) replied on behalf of the
>>> Minister, refusing the requester a copy of the agreement as its contents
>>> were “classified.”'
>>> 
>>> http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/19/why-the-secrecy-on-the-mh17-investigation/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Meanwhile, Amnesty International reports:
>>> 
>>> "Pro-Kyiv volunteer battalions are increasingly blocking humanitarian aid
>>> into eastern Ukraine in a move which will exacerbate a pending humanitarian
>>> crisis in the run up to Christmas and New Year, said Amnesty International.
>>> 
>>> “As winter sets in, the already desperate situation in eastern Ukraine is
>>> being made even worse by the volunteer battalions preventing food aid and
>>> medicine from reaching those in need. It is no secret that the region is
>>> facing a humanitarian disaster with many already at risk of starvation,”
>>> said Denis Krivosheev, acting Director of Europe and Central Asia for
>>> Amnesty International.
>>> 
>>> “These battalions often act like renegade gangs and urgently need to be
>>> brought under control. Denying food to people caught up in a conflict is
>>> against international law and the perpetrators must be held to account.”
>>> 
>>> (...)
>>> 
>>> “Checking the content of humanitarian convoys crossing frontline is one
>>> thing. Preventing it is another. Attempting to create unbearable conditions
>>> of life is a whole new ballgame. Using starvation of civilians as a method
>>> of warfare is a war crime,” said Denis Krivosheev.
>>> 
>>> The population of the region has suffered from six months of fighting
>>> between Kyiv-controlled and pro-Russian separatist forces. More than 4,700
>>> people have died and thousands more live in fear of being caught in the
>>> crossfire or being entirely cut off from vital food and medical supplies.
>>> 
>>> Amnesty International reiterates its call for the Ukrainian authorities to
>>> reign in the volunteer battalions and to ensure that humanitarian aid
>>> reaches those who desperately need it.'
>>> 
>>> http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/eastern-ukraine-humanitarian-disaster-looms-food-aid-blocked-2014-12-23
>>> 
>>> For "pro-Kyiv volunteer battalions" read: right-wing and neo-Nazi militias.
>>> They are now making an attempt to starve the population in the rebel-held
>>> areas of Eastern Ukraine to death.
>>> 
>>> These are our guys, even if nobody wants to admit it. This happens in our
>>> name.
>>> 
>>> Now, where is our "free press"?
>>> 
>>> Thomas
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Am 27.12.2014 um 06:22 schrieb Joseph Tracy:
>>> 
>>> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-24/russia-claims-new-proof-ukraine-involved-in-downing-of-mh17/5988140-
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=nchon-l
>>> 
>>> 
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