Ukraine Rebel Leader: Malaysian Plane was Full of Already Dead Bodies

Wed Jul 23 04:58:28 CDT 2014

As to who shot down the plane, the analysis here seems fairly probative:

http://t.co/nlm2UlqGKs

On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:08 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:

>
>  From well back into the 19th century, and especially now that the US
>> Supreme Court, in its wisdom, has granted corporations full personhood,
>> these corporations have wielded tremendous influence on all branches of the
>> US government. I think Russia looms as an inert glacier, a corrupt and
>> oligarchical structure that's unwilling to play ball with the Western big
>> boys, and that's what's behind the steady drumbeat to fuck with Russia in
>> any way possible. Russia, whether it's described as a glacier, a bear
>> (hibernating or growling), or just a bunch of commies, mobsters or
>> commie-mobsters, is an affront to free trade. And there are too many
>> power-players afoot, from Coca Cola, to Monsanto, to GE, that want
>> something done about it, even if it means starting World War III.<
>>
>
> Yes. The historian Detlef Junker, referring to US foreign policy, once
> coined the phrase "indivisible world market". That's what the
> Anglo-American interest is about. And the Eurasian economic zone Russia
> originally was going for (which included the Ukraine) would have taken too
> many profits away from the corporations. No one is allowed not to
> participate in the world market.
>
>
>  So regardless of who shot down that plane for whatever reason, I'm
>> repelled by the aggressive, accusatory US response. I want the
>> war-mongering to stop.<
>>
>
> Me too!
>
>
>
>
> On 22.07.2014 22:40, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> David Morris: "But ask yourself.  Does anyone really think that Crimea or
>> Eastern Ukraine is even remotely important enought for US or anyone else's
>> interests to have plotted and polled off that act?  It is absurd in the
>> extreme, but perfect for those that want to feed off such crap, like
>> Russians following Putin's leadership back to the glory days of the Soviet
>> Empire.  Is such a scenario is possible? Yes.  But do you really believe it
>> is the likely truth?"
>>
>> I have no idea what the truth is, but it seems vital for some sort of
>> international panel of experts to examine all of the evidence available. My
>> best guess is that this is going to be impossible to sort out to anyone's
>> satisfaction. But there does seem to be a steady drum beat towards
>> isolating Russia economically, and possibly threatening it militarily, that
>> started long before regime-change in the Ukraine escalated things.
>>
>> I don't want any more wars draining the US budget at the expense of our
>> domestic programs. Do you? Even if Russia swooped in and took over the
>> entire Ukraine (which I think is unlikely, but I suppose it could
>> conceivably happen), I don't think most Americans would give a shit, unless
>> they were whipped into war hysteria by demagogues and the corporate press.
>> Before the Ukraine crisis, Obama and Kerry were trying to drum up support
>> for military intervention in Syria, despite the fact that polls showed most
>> Americans were either indifferent or opposed to such intervention. In fact,
>> it was only after Putin seized on a stray rhetorical comment by Kerry, in
>> order to broker a non-military solution, that the US had to back down. Most
>> Americans are pretty sick of war, I'm guessing. The various Middle East
>> invasions have gotten us nothing.
>>
>> I've finally gotten around to reading The Education of Henry Adams, and
>> just finished the chapter titled Teufelsdrockh (1901), in which Adams
>> describes a visit to Russia. He described it as a cultural wasteland, from
>> which he was glad to leave to the much more culturally advanced
>> Scandinavian lands. His opinion was that it would take many generations (if
>> ever) to close the vast gap between Russia and Europe, but that, by virtue
>> of its huge size and large population, Russia could not be ignored. He
>> likened it to a massive glacier, threatening its neighbors by virtue of its
>> vast inertia.
>>
>> It seems to me that this must be the attitude that corporations with a
>> global reach must have towards Russia in the present day. What do they want
>> from Russia (or any country)? Tariff-free trade, unlimited access to
>> consumer markets, and the chance to exploit a docile, rights-free workforce
>> (which China has kindly offered up, but doesn't seem to be an option in
>> Russia, or the US, for that matter). From well back into the 19th century,
>> and especially now that the US Supreme Court, in its wisdom, has granted
>> corporations full personhood, these corporations have wielded tremendous
>> influence on all branches of the US government. I think Russia looms as an
>> inert glacier, a corrupt and oligarchical structure that's unwilling to
>> play ball with the Western big boys, and that's what's behind the steady
>> drumbeat to fuck with Russia in any way possible. Russia, whether it's
>> described as a glacier, a bear (hibernating or growling), or just a bunch
>> of commies, mobsters or commie-mobsters, is an affront to free trade. And
>> there are too many power-players afoot, from Coca Cola, to Monsanto, to GE,
>> that want something done about it, even if it means starting World War III.
>>
>> So regardless of who shot down that plane for whatever reason, I'm
>> repelled by the aggressive, accusatory US response. I want the
>> war-mongering to stop.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Morris
>> Sent: Jul 22, 2014 3:03 PM
>> To: "kelber at mindspring.com"
>> Cc: "pynchon-l at waste.org"
>> Subject: Re: Ukraine Rebel Leader: Malaysian Plane was Full of Already
>> Dead Bodies
>>
>>
>> As I said in my post re. Zerohedge: "If any of this is true, things will
>> shake out very fast now. Let's just wait and see."
>> If the "Ukraine and the United States deliberately plotted to shoot down
>> the passenger jet," or anything even close to that, Russian evidence won't
>> be escapable. Period.
>> But ask yourself.  Does anyone really think that Crimea or Eastern
>> Ukraine is even remotely important enought for US or anyone else's
>> interests to have plotted and polled off that act?  It is absurd in the
>> extreme, but perfect for those that want to feed off such crap, like
>> Russians following Putin's leadership back to the glory days of the Soviet
>> Empire.  Is such a scenario is possible? Yes.  But do you really believe it
>> is the likely truth?
>> David Morris
>> On Tuesday, July 22, 2014,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> OK, David, Zerohedge is a bunch of kooks? Fair enough. So let's look at
>> the NY Times coverage:
>>
>>
>> Under the headline: Russia's Message on Jet: Conciliation and Bluster
>>
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/putin-
>> calls-for-talks-in-ukraine-and-a-robust-crash-investigation.html?rref=
>> homepage&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&
>> contentCollection=Home%20Page&pgtype=article
>>
>>
>>
>> Buried near the end of a very long article is the only mention of the
>> photos and video described in the ZeroHedge article:
>>
>>
>> "Hence two senior Russian military commanders, sitting in a vast briefing
>> room and dwarfed by the giant electronic screens overhead, used various
>> satellite images and charts to raise a series of rhetorical questions that
>> suggested that Ukraine and the United States deliberately plotted to shoot
>> down the passenger jet. The unusual bilingual briefing was broadcast live
>> on state-run television."
>>
>>
>>
>> In a different article, the Times makes much of a photo of a piece of the
>> wreckage that they gave to an expert at Jane's military analysis, who
>> reported that it looked like it had been hit by shrapnel from a missile.
>> Now why on earth wouldn't the Times or the State Department not want to get
>> similar analysis of the photo/video evidence presented at a televised,
>> official Russian press conference, if only to officially debunk it?
>>
>>
>>
>> Laura
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=nchon-l
>>
>>
>>
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20140723/32323ec2/attachment.html>