Ukraine Rebel Leader: Malaysian Plane was Full of Already Dead Bodies

Wed Jul 23 09:07:03 CDT 2014

If your string are being yanked you might as well lay back and enjoy it.

On Wednesday, July 23, 2014, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:

> Heikki, I applaud your friends in Russia for opposing Putin - he's a vile
> dictator and should be opposed by his own citizens. Saddam Hussein was also
> a vile dictator, but I don't think the Iraqis who risked their lives and
> freedom to oppose him were well served by the US invasion. I don't think
> that poor Afghani woman, whose husband brutally disfigured her face with
> acid, and who was subsequently trotted out as a poster child on the cover
> of Time magazine to justify the US invasion, finds her country imbued with
> freedom, democracy, education and feminism as a result of that invasion.
>
> Now here's a funny thing: I think we'd both agree that the Chinese
> government is as at least as repressive as Putin's and Saddam's, but I, as
> an American, can't summon up the name of the head of state, or any "bad
> guy" there. Why? Because the US and its frothing-mouthed press has no
> interest in demonizing anyone over there, and aside from the occasional
> mumbling about "concerns" over human rights, could care less about China's
> foreign policy excesses. Here's a quote from yesterday's NY Times:
>
> Apple Posts $7.7 Billion in Profit on Strong iPhone Sales
>
> "Apple earlier this year reached a deal to sell iPhones with China Mobile,
> the largest wireless network in the world. The partnership so far has
> resulted in healthy growth for the Silicon Valley company in China, an
> increasingly vital market for the company, especially now that the
> smartphone markets in the United States and parts of Europe have become
> saturated."
>
> The reality is, Heikki, that not only your anti-Putin friends in Russia,
> but all of us, who buy their products and vote their spokespeople into
> office, are puppets of the multi-national corporations.
>
> Laura
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Heikki Raudaskoski <hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi <javascript:;>>
> >Sent: Jul 23, 2014 7:41 AM
> >To: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org <javascript:;>>
> >Subject: Re: Ukraine Rebel Leader: Malaysian Plane was Full of Already
> Dead Bodies
> >
> >
> >
> >I don't have the heart to tell my anti-Putin friends in Russia the truth
> >that they are nothing but puppets in the service of multinational
> >capitalist corporations.
> >
> >
> >On Wed, 23 Jul 2014, Kai Frederik Lorentzen wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> > From well back into the 19th century, and especially now that the US
> Supreme Court, in its wisdom, has granted corporations full personhood,
> these corporations have wielded tremendous influence on all branches of the
> US government. I think Russia looms as an inert glacier, a corrupt and
> oligarchical structure that's unwilling to play ball with the Western big
> boys, and that's what's behind the steady drumbeat to fuck with Russia in
> any way possible. Russia, whether it's described as a glacier, a bear
> (hibernating or growling), or just a bunch of commies, mobsters or
> commie-mobsters, is an affront to free trade. And there are too many
> power-players afoot, from Coca Cola, to Monsanto, to GE, that want
> something done about it, even if it means starting World War III.<
> >>
> >> Yes. The historian Detlef Junker, referring to US foreign policy, once
> >> coined the phrase "indivisible world market". That's what the
> >> Anglo-American interest is about. And the Eurasian economic zone Russia
> >> originally was going for (which included the Ukraine) would have taken
> >> too many profits away from the corporations. No one is allowed not to
> >> participate in the world market.
> >>
> >> > So regardless of who shot down that plane for whatever reason, I'm
> repelled by the aggressive, accusatory US response. I want the
> war-mongering to stop.<
> >>
> >> Me too!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 22.07.2014 22:40, kelber at mindspring.com <javascript:;> wrote:
> >> > David Morris: "But ask yourself.  Does anyone really think that
> Crimea or Eastern Ukraine is even remotely important enought for US or
> anyone else's interests to have plotted and polled off that act?  It is
> absurd in the extreme, but perfect for those that want to feed off such
> crap, like Russians following Putin's leadership back to the glory days of
> the Soviet Empire.  Is such a scenario is possible? Yes.  But do you really
> believe it is the likely truth?"
> >> >
> >> > I have no idea what the truth is, but it seems vital for some sort of
> international panel of experts to examine all of the evidence available. My
> best guess is that this is going to be impossible to sort out to anyone's
> satisfaction. But there does seem to be a steady drum beat towards
> isolating Russia economically, and possibly threatening it militarily, that
> started long before regime-change in the Ukraine escalated things.
> >> >
> >> > I don't want any more wars draining the US budget at the expense of
> our domestic programs. Do you? Even if Russia swooped in and took over the
> entire Ukraine (which I think is unlikely, but I suppose it could
> conceivably happen), I don't think most Americans would give a shit, unless
> they were whipped into war hysteria by demagogues and the corporate press.
> Before the Ukraine crisis, Obama and Kerry were trying to drum up support
> for military intervention in Syria, despite the fact that polls showed most
> Americans were either indifferent or opposed to such intervention. In fact,
> it was only after Putin seized on a stray rhetorical comment by Kerry, in
> order to broker a non-military solution, that the US had to back down. Most
> Americans are pretty sick of war, I'm guessing. The various Middle East
> invasions have gotten us nothing.
> >> >
> >> > I've finally gotten around to reading The Education of Henry Adams,
> and just finished the chapter titled Teufelsdrockh (1901), in which Adams
> describes a visit to Russia. He described it as a cultural wasteland, from
> which he was glad to leave to the much more culturally advanced
> Scandinavian lands. His opinion was that it would take many generations (if
> ever) to close the vast gap between Russia and Europe, but that, by virtue
> of its huge size and large population, Russia could not be ignored. He
> likened it to a massive glacier, threatening its neighbors by virtue of its
> vast inertia.
> >> >
> >> > It seems to me that this must be the attitude that corporations with
> a global reach must have towards Russia in the present day. What do they
> want from Russia (or any country)? Tariff-free trade, unlimited access to
> consumer markets, and the chance to exploit a docile, rights-free workforce
> (which China has kindly offered up, but doesn't seem to be an option in
> Russia, or the US, for that matter). From well back into the 19th century,
> and especially now that the US Supreme Court, in its wisdom, has granted
> corporations full personhood, these corporations have wielded tremendous
> influence on all branches of the US government. I think Russia looms as an
> inert glacier, a corrupt and oligarchical structure that's unwilling to
> play ball with the Western big boys, and that's what's behind the steady
> drumbeat to fuck with Russia in any way possible. Russia, whether it's
> described as a glacier, a bear (hibernating or growling), or just a bunch
> of commies, mobsters or commie-mobs
>  !
> > ters, is an affront to free trade. And there are too many power-players
> afoot, from Coca Cola, to Monsanto, to GE, that want something done about
> it, even if it means starting World War III.
> >> >
> >> > So regardless of who shot down that plane for whatever reason, I'm
> repelled by the aggressive, accusatory US response. I want the
> war-mongering to stop.
> >> >
> >> > Laura
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: David Morris
> >> > Sent: Jul 22, 2014 3:03 PM
> >> > To: "kelber at mindspring.com <javascript:;>"
> >> > Cc: "pynchon-l at waste.org <javascript:;>"
> >> > Subject: Re: Ukraine Rebel Leader: Malaysian Plane was Full of
> Already Dead Bodies
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > As I said in my post re. Zerohedge: "If any of this is true, things
> will shake out very fast now. Let's just wait and see."
> >> > If the "Ukraine and the United States deliberately plotted to shoot
> down the passenger jet," or anything even close to that, Russian evidence
> won't be escapable. Period.
> >> > But ask yourself.  Does anyone really think that Crimea or Eastern
> Ukraine is even remotely important enought for US or anyone else's
> interests to have plotted and polled off that act?  It is absurd in the
> extreme, but perfect for those that want to feed off such crap, like
> Russians following Putin's leadership back to the glory days of the Soviet
> Empire.  Is such a scenario is possible? Yes.  But do you really believe it
> is the likely truth?
> >> > David Morris
> >> > On Tuesday, July 22, 2014,  <kelber at mindspring.com <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> >> > OK, David, Zerohedge is a bunch of kooks? Fair enough. So let's look
> at the NY Times coverage:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Under the headline: Russia's Message on Jet: Conciliation and Bluster
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/putin-calls-for-talks-in-ukraine-and-a-robust-crash-investigation.html?rref=homepage&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Home%20Page&pgtype=article
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Buried near the end of a very long article is the only mention of the
> photos and video described in the ZeroHedge article:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Hence two senior Russian military commanders, sitting in a vast
> briefing room and dwarfed by the giant electronic screens overhead, used
> various satellite images and charts to raise a series of rhetorical
> questions that suggested that Ukraine and the United States deliberately
> plotted to shoot down the passenger jet. The unusual bilingual briefing was
> broadcast live on state-run television."
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In a different article, the Times makes much of a photo of a piece of
> the wreckage that they gave to an expert at Jane's military analysis, who
> reported that it looked like it had been hit by shrapnel from a missile.
> Now why on earth wouldn't the Times or the State Department not want to get
> similar analysis of the photo/video evidence presented at a televised,
> official Russian press conference, if only to officially debunk it?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Laura
> >> > -
> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=nchon-l
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
> >>
> >-
> >Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
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