Ukraine Rebel Leader: Malaysian Plane was Full of Already Dead Bodies

Michael Alan michaelalancc at gmail.com
Wed Jul 23 09:52:28 CDT 2014 

Yes.

On Wednesday, July 23, 2014, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here is an almost-metaphysical, Marcuse& False Consciousness and Gravity's
> Rainbow-related question: Can we rise above being a puppet ...at all?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 23, 2014, at 9:07 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
> If your string are being yanked you might as well lay back and enjoy it.
>
> On Wednesday, July 23, 2014, <kelber at mindspring.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kelber at mindspring.com');>> wrote:
>
>> Heikki, I applaud your friends in Russia for opposing Putin - he's a vile
>> dictator and should be opposed by his own citizens. Saddam Hussein was also
>> a vile dictator, but I don't think the Iraqis who risked their lives and
>> freedom to oppose him were well served by the US invasion. I don't think
>> that poor Afghani woman, whose husband brutally disfigured her face with
>> acid, and who was subsequently trotted out as a poster child on the cover
>> of Time magazine to justify the US invasion, finds her country imbued with
>> freedom, democracy, education and feminism as a result of that invasion.
>>
>> Now here's a funny thing: I think we'd both agree that the Chinese
>> government is as at least as repressive as Putin's and Saddam's, but I, as
>> an American, can't summon up the name of the head of state, or any "bad
>> guy" there. Why? Because the US and its frothing-mouthed press has no
>> interest in demonizing anyone over there, and aside from the occasional
>> mumbling about "concerns" over human rights, could care less about China's
>> foreign policy excesses. Here's a quote from yesterday's NY Times:
>>
>> Apple Posts $7.7 Billion in Profit on Strong iPhone Sales
>>
>> "Apple earlier this year reached a deal to sell iPhones with China
>> Mobile, the largest wireless network in the world. The partnership so far
>> has resulted in healthy growth for the Silicon Valley company in China, an
>> increasingly vital market for the company, especially now that the
>> smartphone markets in the United States and parts of Europe have become
>> saturated."
>>
>> The reality is, Heikki, that not only your anti-Putin friends in Russia,
>> but all of us, who buy their products and vote their spokespeople into
>> office, are puppets of the multi-national corporations.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Heikki Raudaskoski <hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi>
>> >Sent: Jul 23, 2014 7:41 AM
>> >To: pynchon-l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> >Subject: Re: Ukraine Rebel Leader: Malaysian Plane was Full of Already
>> Dead Bodies
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >I don't have the heart to tell my anti-Putin friends in Russia the truth
>> >that they are nothing but puppets in the service of multinational
>> >capitalist corporations.
>> >
>> >
>> >On Wed, 23 Jul 2014, Kai Frederik Lorentzen wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > From well back into the 19th century, and especially now that the US
>> Supreme Court, in its wisdom, has granted corporations full personhood,
>> these corporations have wielded tremendous influence on all branches of the
>> US government. I think Russia looms as an inert glacier, a corrupt and
>> oligarchical structure that's unwilling to play ball with the Western big
>> boys, and that's what's behind the steady drumbeat to fuck with Russia in
>> any way possible. Russia, whether it's described as a glacier, a bear
>> (hibernating or growling), or just a bunch of commies, mobsters or
>> commie-mobsters, is an affront to free trade. And there are too many
>> power-players afoot, from Coca Cola, to Monsanto, to GE, that want
>> something done about it, even if it means starting World War III.<
>> >>
>> >> Yes. The historian Detlef Junker, referring to US foreign policy, once
>> >> coined the phrase "indivisible world market". That's what the
>> >> Anglo-American interest is about. And the Eurasian economic zone Russia
>> >> originally was going for (which included the Ukraine) would have taken
>> >> too many profits away from the corporations. No one is allowed not to
>> >> participate in the world market.
>> >>
>> >> > So regardless of who shot down that plane for whatever reason, I'm
>> repelled by the aggressive, accusatory US response. I want the
>> war-mongering to stop.<
>> >>
>> >> Me too!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 22.07.2014 22:40, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>> >> > David Morris: "But ask yourself.  Does anyone really think that
>> Crimea or Eastern Ukraine is even remotely important enought for US or
>> anyone else's interests to have plotted and polled off that act?  It is
>> absurd in the extreme, but perfect for those that want to feed off such
>> crap, like Russians following Putin's leadership back to the glory days of
>> the Soviet Empire.  Is such a scenario is possible? Yes.  But do you really
>> believe it is the likely truth?"
>> >> >
>> >> > I have no idea what the truth is, but it seems vital for some sort
>> of international panel of experts to examine all of the evidence available.
>> My best guess is that this is going to be impossible to sort out to
>> anyone's satisfaction. But there does seem to be a steady drum beat towards
>> isolating Russia economically, and possibly threatening it militarily, that
>> started long before regime-change in the Ukraine escalated things.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't want any more wars draining the US budget at the expense of
>> our domestic programs. Do you? Even if Russia swooped in and took over the
>> entire Ukraine (which I think is unlikely, but I suppose it could
>> conceivably happen), I don't think most Americans would give a shit, unless
>> they were whipped into war hysteria by demagogues and the corporate press.
>> Before the Ukraine crisis, Obama and Kerry were trying to drum up support
>> for military intervention in Syria, despite the fact that polls showed most
>> Americans were either indifferent or opposed to such intervention. In fact,
>> it was only after Putin seized on a stray rhetorical comment by Kerry, in
>> order to broker a non-military solution, that the US had to back down. Most
>> Americans are pretty sick of war, I'm guessing. The various Middle East
>> invasions have gotten us nothing.
>> >> >
>> >> > I've finally gotten around to reading The Education of Henry Adams,
>> and just finished the chapter titled Teufelsdrockh (1901), in which Adams
>> describes a visit to Russia. He described it as a cultural wasteland, from
>> which he was glad to leave to the much more culturally advanced
>> Scandinavian lands. His opinion was that it would take many generations (if
>> ever) to close the vast gap between Russia and Europe, but that, by virtue
>> of its huge size and large population, Russia could not be ignored. He
>> likened it to a massive glacier, threatening its neighbors by virtue of its
>> vast inertia.
>> >> >
>> >> > It seems to me that this must be the attitude that corporations with
>> a global reach must have towards Russia in the present day. What do they
>> want from Russia (or any country)? Tariff-free trade, unlimited access to
>> consumer markets, and the chance to exploit a docile, rights-free workforce
>> (which China has kindly offered up, but doesn't seem to be an option in
>> Russia, or the US, for that matter). From well back into the 19th century,
>> and especially now that the US Supreme Court, in its wisdom, has granted
>> corporations full personhood, these corporations have wielded tremendous
>> influence on all branches of the US government. I think Russia looms as an
>> inert glacier, a corrupt and oligarchical structure that's unwilling to
>> play ball with the Western big boys, and that's what's behind the steady
>> drumbeat to fuck with Russia in any way possible. Russia, whether it's
>> described as a glacier, a bear (hibernating or growling), or just a bunch
>> of commies, mobsters or commie-mobs
>>  !
>> > ters, is an affront to free trade. And there are too many power-players
>> afoot, from Coca Cola, to Monsanto, to GE, that want something done about
>> it, even if it means starting World War III.
>> >> >
>> >> > So regardless of who shot down that plane for whatever reason, I'm
>> repelled by the aggressive, accusatory US response. I want the
>> war-mongering to stop.
>> >> >
>> >> > Laura
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: David Morris
>> >> > Sent: Jul 22, 2014 3:03 PM
>> >> > To: "kelber at mindspring.com"
>> >> > Cc: "pynchon-l at waste.org"
>> >> > Subject: Re: Ukraine Rebel Leader: Malaysian Plane was Full of
>> Already Dead Bodies
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > As I said in my post re. Zerohedge: "If any of this is true, things
>> will shake out very fast now. Let's just wait and see."
>> >> > If the "Ukraine and the United States deliberately plotted to shoot
>> down the passenger jet," or anything even close to that, Russian evidence
>> won't be escapable. Period.
>> >> > But ask yourself.  Does anyone really think that Crimea or Eastern
>> Ukraine is even remotely important enought for US or anyone else's
>> interests to have plotted and polled off that act?  It is absurd in the
>> extreme, but perfect for those that want to feed off such crap, like
>> Russians following Putin's leadership back to the glory days of the Soviet
>> Empire.  Is such a scenario is possible? Yes.  But do you really believe it
>> is the likely truth?
>> >> > David Morris
>> >> > On Tuesday, July 22, 2014,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >> > OK, David, Zerohedge is a bunch of kooks? Fair enough. So let's look
>> at the NY Times coverage:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Under the headline: Russia's Message on Jet: Conciliation and Bluster
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/putin-calls-for-talks-in-ukraine-and-a-robust-crash-investigation.html?rref=homepage&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Home%20Page&pgtype=article
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Buried near the end of a very long article is the only mention of
>> the photos and video described in the ZeroHedge article:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "Hence two senior Russian military commanders, sitting in a vast
>> briefing room and dwarfed by the giant electronic screens overhead, used
>> various satellite images and charts to raise a series of rhetorical
>> questions that suggested that Ukraine and the United States deliberately
>> plotted to shoot down the passenger jet. The unusual bilingual briefing was
>> broadcast live on state-run television."
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > In a different article, the Times makes much of a photo of a piece
>> of the wreckage that they gave to an expert at Jane's military analysis,
>> who reported that it looked like it had been hit by shrapnel from a
>> missile. Now why on earth wouldn't the Times or the State Department not
>> want to get similar analysis of the photo/video evidence presented at a
>> televised, official Russian press conference, if only to officially debunk
>> it?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Laura
>> >> > -
>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=nchon-l
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -
>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>> >>
>> >-
>> >Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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>
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