Another Geopolitical Triumph For Vladimir Putin!
Ian Livingston
igrlivingston at gmail.com
Sun Jun 29 12:48:12 CDT 2014
Hello, Alice.
On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Michael Alan <michaelalancc at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Yes you're being naive, but that has nothing to do with your age.
>
> Nothing said here has anything to do with age or life experience, it has
> elegantly, and with a type of effortless effervescence, to do, entirely,
> with towering egos.
>
> For example, the divine Mr. Morris doesn't know where of he speaks, and he
> doesn't even speak very good. He can if he wants to, he just likes to
> lounge behind lofty ideals and soft truisms.
>
> I love the Ukraine, why would I mind if Putin scrubs his ass on it? No
> wait, that's not the point.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Doc Sportello <coolwithdoc at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Good email. I'm a young guy, what some folks call a millennial, born in
>> 86, and I assume most of you are older and have experience with US/Russian
>> tensions as well as how it's portrayed by different media sources.
>>
>> This exchange got me thinking too; about media and propaganda and the
>> narrative coming from both Russia and the US. Of course the US wants us to
>> believe the Ukrainians want to be "free" like us and of course Russia would
>> want to undermine that by exposing the new extremists taking power. It's
>> all propaganda, doesn't mean it isn't true.
>>
>> I hesitate to write because I assume you are all much more familiar with
>> these media battles, either because of or being from not-America where the
>> wool isn't pulled quite as tight over your eyes. My general impression is
>> that America likes to portray European politics as something less extreme
>> than they really are. And it's easy for us to accept that seeing as how
>> we're used to relatively tame American politics. Is this how it is? Am I
>> being naive?
>> On Jun 29, 2014 7:51 AM, "Ian Livingston" <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We in the US have developed a passionate myopia regarding other nations,
>>> other people's ways of living. I listen to my friends and peers passing
>>> judgment on world affairs as we hear about them. Now, the Guardian is one
>>> of the few remaining news sources to which we have ready access that
>>> actually offers up moderately dispassionate reporting we can read
>>> critically and sometimes get an actual glimpse into what is going on
>>> outside our homes and offices, but the critical aspect of that reading is
>>> necessarily flawed by the prejudices ingrained in us from youth. We still,
>>> for instance, think we are free, and that free trade will free others in
>>> the world to be free like us. It's a nearly automatic association. We
>>> believe in capitalism with absolutely blind faith, even though our free
>>> trade agreements open up new labor markets for the capitalist class while
>>> disenfranchising and marginalizing the remainder of our society and the
>>> society with which the free trade agreement is struck to scrap for whatever
>>> satisfaction they can find in the leavings of those shitty deals, while a
>>> few capitalists and government officials wallow in their wealth.
>>>
>>> The Ukrainian people and the Russian people have a long history
>>> together, stretching too far back for Americans to imagine successfully.
>>> For us, the world began a couple hundred years ago and medieval and ancient
>>> history are but a store of myths that help distract us from our tedium and
>>> make us sound to ourselves like enlightened thinkers. But we are a nation
>>> of narcissists, lacking in empathy for others--a lack we compensate for
>>> with affected sympathy for the absence of freedom we imagine they
>>> experience. We will take any criticism of this phenomenon personally, as if
>>> anyone who looks in the mirror sees figures other than the figure of self
>>> denigrates us individually no matter how untrue that may be. To admit that
>>> we are culturally incapable of understanding the plight of others makes us
>>> less than others from the perspective of our deeply experienced
>>> righteousness. The depth of the subjective ironic tension is inscrutable,
>>> intolerable. It is very difficult for us to imagine people who think and
>>> experience life from the perspective of belonging to groups gathered around
>>> mutual experience rather than ideologies.
>>>
>>> Our capitalist lords have strong desires to gain access to the labor
>>> pools in Ukraine, Russia, the world, etc. They don't care how they get it.
>>> Their method has always been to encourage dissent abroad and suppress it at
>>> home. I don't know why we believe those old notions of individualism and
>>> freedom we have been fed so long, but we do. I do. I have a hell of a time
>>> remembering that Russians have always inclined to collectivism and that
>>> their new mafia collectives are a response to the West's triumph in
>>> suppressing nationalized collectivism in the USSR by working for decades to
>>> keep the socialists reliant on trade with the capitalist cartels and at
>>> odds with themselves and the world. From the capitalist perspective,
>>> collectivism is evil; from the collectivist perspective individualism seems
>>> strange, perhaps alluring at times.
>>>
>>> What about the skinheads, nazis and such? I've known a few of them here
>>> in the US, and they seem individually motivated simply by unfocussed fear
>>> assigned to all that they do not understand. There seemed to be quite a lot
>>> of oversimplification, beyond what we all do in our communicative
>>> pastiches, reducing all that is other to the status of threat. Racism is
>>> very popular among American nazis, expressed in life quite differently than
>>> in film. And there seemed to be present a terribly painful desire to belong
>>> to some group.
>>>
>>> Maybe there is something missing in all of us that is craving
>>> fulfillment. Maybe we look to others for satisfaction of that desire. Maybe
>>> we look to others to see if they have better access to satisfaction.
>>>
>>> I don't know, that much is a given. I'm just rambling because your
>>> exchange set me thinking.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Thomas Eckhardt <
>>> thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I certainly don't believe ultra right-wingers (aka Nazis or, in this
>>>> case, Banderists) are your heroes. The evidence I provided merely shows
>>>> that the neo-Nazi paramilitary units who brought about regime change on the
>>>> Maidan are now rapidly becoming part of the military/the national guard.
>>>> Obviously, you don't have a problem with that. I certainly do.
>>>>
>>>> You seem to believe that these people will quietly disappear "once the
>>>> country joins the West", or once parliamentary elections have taken place.
>>>> I don't.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion you are severely misjudging the power and ruthlessness of
>>>> the Banderists and their troops. But what really enrages me is that these
>>>> people receive political, financial and PR support from the West.
>>>>
>>>> At best, the West is supporting Nazis/Banderists (amongst other, less
>>>> odious groups, of course) as a means to an end. From this perspective, the
>>>> end of curtailing Russia's influence in the region justifies the means. To
>>>> me it doesn't.
>>>>
>>>> All you say about Russia and Putin may well be true. I am not
>>>> pro-Putin, I am anti-Nazi. And I try to first look at the beam in my own
>>>> eye.
>>>>
>>>> We have been debating various matters, P-related or not, for 10 to 15
>>>> years now, David. I may not always agree with you but I respect your point
>>>> of view. There is no need to call me "someone from Germany."
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 29.06.2014 07:23, schrieb David Morris:
>>>>
>>>>> Every time I post something that demonstrates Putin's futile effort to
>>>>> keep Ukraine in its court, someone from Germany posts evidence showing
>>>>> how ultra right wingers are my heroes. Am I myopic, or are those
>>>>> pro-Putiners? It seems to me that most of Ukraine wants to leave the
>>>>> former Soviet empire. It seems to me that Russia today is a vast mafia
>>>>> oligarchy. No matter how right or left the Ukrainians may be, they
>>>>> seem
>>>>> to want a place where law is more stable than in Putin's realm. The
>>>>> present actors in Ukraine are just a transition, a pendulum. They
>>>>> can't
>>>>> remains in their present form once the country join the West. I know I
>>>>> am far removed from your reality. Please explain why you are pro Putin
>>>>> in this conflict.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, June 28, 2014, Thomas Eckhardt <
>>>>> thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de
>>>>> <mailto:thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 150,000 internally and externally displaced persons, a government
>>>>> that refuses to cooperate with the UN regarding an investigation of
>>>>> the Odessa atrocity (UN report on human rights), a-and these guys
>>>>> doing their very best to "improve rule of law and human rights" in
>>>>> the Ukraine:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/__Azov_Battalion
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion>
>>>>>
>>>>> (I recommend the video clip showing the oath of enlistment. It is
>>>>> there that you can see the 'Wolfsangel.')
>>>>>
>>>>> The Azov Battalion is subordinated to the Ministry of Internal
>>>>> Affairs and organized by this highly interesting group:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/__Social-National_Assembly
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-National_Assembly>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice work. Let freedom ring!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. While you're at it, you may also look at the Wiki entry for
>>>>> Andriy Parubiy, a member of the government and Ukraine's
>>>>> representative in consultations with NATO.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 27.06.2014 14:43, schrieb David Morris:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.motherjones.com/__kevin-drum/2014/06/another-__
>>>>> geopolitical-triumph-valdimir-__putin
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/06/another-
>>>>> geopolitical-triumph-valdimir-putin>
>>>>>
>>>>> From the /Guardian/:
>>>>> <http://www.theguardian.com/__world/2014/jun/26/ukraine-__
>>>>> european-union-trade-pact
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/26/ukraine-
>>>>> european-union-trade-pact>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It was the document that started a revolution and ended up
>>>>> bringing
>>>>> Europe to the brink of war. Ukraine's association
>>>>> agreement
>>>>> with the
>>>>> European Union, a mainly economic document setting up a
>>>>> free trade
>>>>> area that nevertheless has political and strategic
>>>>> ramifications,
>>>>> will finally be signed on Friday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Along with Georgia and Moldova, two other post-Soviet
>>>>> countries keen
>>>>> to move out of Moscow's orbit, *Kiev will sign the deal
>>>>> with
>>>>> Brussels to establish a free-trade area and introduce a
>>>>> raft of
>>>>> measures designed to synchronise economies with EU
>>>>> nations,* as well
>>>>> as improve rule of law and human rights.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, that Putin is a geopolitical strategic mastermind, isn't
>>>>> he? Every
>>>>> country on Russia's border is now hellbent on better economic
>>>>> and
>>>>> military ties with the West. Nice work.
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20140629/45f7d9f0/attachment.html>
More information about the Pynchon-l
mailing list