Putin's Counter Revolution

Sun Mar 16 21:11:31 CDT 2014

Yeah, The U.S. cannot even try to get the nations of the world to act in concert under principles of international law because IT--the US --was, --is,--a sinner. 

Weird, man. Weird. 

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2014, at 7:31 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> Curtis Lemay is not a talk show host, but I don't recall making such a comparison before at all, let alone on a regular basis and I was talking about your atomic weapons theory which sounds nuts to me. Still I should have held my tongue with personal comparisons. I apologize, and don't want to start an insult war. Obviously this Ukraine thing seems very morally clear to you and it doesn't to me.
> I just think it is in everyone's best interest if it doesn't become a war which will result in more suffering than any promised deliverance. 
>  If Russia should be punished shouldn't the US be punished over the  Iraq invasion which looks about a million times worse to me if you compare the offenses by the loss of human life.
>  From my POV we are being at least as aggressive as Russia. Why is is it the US's place to propitiate a coup and appoint the interim leader?
> As far as punishing Russia, they could punish right back, and kick off some serious economic repercussions
> If the Ukraine is so sovereign maybe they should solve their own economic problems instead of bouncing back and forth between sugar daddies.  Oh Russia I love it when you do me with all that sweet crude. Oh EU and Mr America, you have such a big manly banking system.
> 
> Yes I am an idealist if by that you mean an advocate of democratic or consensus based  peaceable conflict resolution. I don't regard it as realistic to bully and bomb people and expect good to come from it.
> 
> On Mar 16, 2014, at 3:34 PM, alice malice wrote:
> 
>> My reading of it is honest and is supported by the facts and by
>> history. You are naive and idealistic.  Anytime someone here shows you
>> the facts you call them a right wing talk show host. Why is that?
>> Can't you argue the facts? The agreement that Russia signed was not
>> nullified by the change in government. Ukraine is a sovereign state
>> and was promised protection if it surrendered the weapons. Putin
>> violated the agreement. Now he will have to pay the price. How is that
>> a right wing position? Should thugs like Putin be allowed to threaten
>> their neighbors? Is this what Left Wingers support? No. The world
>> needs to defend Ukraine. Not because it has a government we admire or
>> hope to see succeed, but because Russia is threatening the peace and
>> Putin must pay a price for his aggression.  This is a sensible and
>> logical approach, the one most likely to be implemented.
>> On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> The agreement was made with an elected government that is gone. What they have there in Ukraine was made up last week.  Your theory is nutty anyway , just utterly paranoid true believer armageddon stuff . You sound like Rush Limbaugh or Curtis LeMay.
>>> On Mar 16, 2014, at 12:23 PM, alice malice wrote:
>>> 
>>>> They will. Of course they will. The spread can't be stopped. Brasil is
>>>> deep into it. Who or what wil threaten there interests and security
>>>> in the future is hard to say, but we can be sure that it will happen.
>>>> 
>>>> The logic is supported by history. Read that chapter from M-D. Loose
>>>> fish will be made fast.
>>>> 
>>>> Land, like the islands off Argentina (remember that?), resources,
>>>> fishing rights, water...air space....
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Ukraine agreed to give them up and look  what happened there. Even
>>>> Putin would have to think twice if all those nukes were still in
>>>> Ukraine.
>>>> 
>>>> It's expensive. The American Empire will make them pay dearly for it,
>>>> but, as you say, logic, ego-politics, will drive the spread of nukes
>>>> on a global scale.
>>>> 
>>>> The anti-proliferation objective may continue a pace, as weapons are
>>>> dismantled, bu the spread of weapons, of nukes, can't be stopped.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 11:34 AM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>> And by that logic, Venezuela, and most of Latin America, for that matter,
>>>>> should nuke up to defend themselves against the US tendency to depose and/or
>>>>> murder elected presidents.
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/17/usa.venezuela
>>>>> 
>>>>> LK
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: David Morris
>>>>> Sent: Mar 16, 2014 10:45 AM
>>>>> To: alice malice
>>>>> Cc: "pynchon-l at waste.org"
>>>>> Subject: Re: Putin's Counter Revolution
>>>>> 
>>>>> You think if Ukrane had nukes that would have changed the current situation
>>>>> in Ukraines favor? So a new government in Kiev would have threatened to
>>>>> launch the Big Ones if Russia stepped into Crimea?  That sounds like crazy
>>>>> talk. Nukes versus boots on ground? God save us from that equation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sunday, March 16, 2014, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What's was needed, as Mearsheimer argued convincingly only a few years
>>>>>> ago, was a greater nuclear deterrent; he was right that Ukraine needed a
>>>>>> nuclear arsenal to defend itself against Russia's superior conventional
>>>>>> army. Water under the bridge.  But the west has to punish Putin now. Punish
>>>>>> his markets and economy. Let him have the mess in Syria. Iran won't turn
>>>>>> back now. Move to defend and strengthen NATO, and punish that murdering
>>>>>> thug.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sunday, March 16, 2014, Thomas Eckhardt <thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> With regard to the geopolitical aspects of the crisis, this may be of
>>>>>>> interest:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/opinion/getting-ukraine-wrong.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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