Putin's Counter Revolution

Wed Mar 19 18:11:42 CDT 2014

Yes.  Good advice.

but if I were there I would much rather model my country after Finland than one 
of the debtor nations of southern Europe.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Wed, Mar 19, 2014 10:17 am
Subject: Re: Putin's Counter Revolution

I wish the Ukrainians well. I think they will have to continue without Crimea, 
but if I were there I would much rather model my country after Finland than one 
of the debtor nations of southern Europe. But being hitched to Putin sounds 
probably worse. 
On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:42 PM, David Morris wrote:

> The military is always a wild card in these uprisings. Unfortunately military 
mind doesn't work well with diverse, unruly and oppositional groups that make up 
democracy. So often democracy fails.
> 
> I think Ukraine needs a chance to make it work, neo-nazis and all.  They want 
to give it a try, non-Putin style.  The want to be in Europe's path, not 
Russia's.
> 
> On Tuesday, March 18, 2014, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> Egypt is  worth considering as regards coups.  Morsi was opposed by crowds, 
but not deposed by them.  Same with Mubarak . Both were deposed by the military. 
It turned out to be a very bad choice for  the original revolutionary activists 
to support this overthrow of  Morsi, an elected goverment, just as it was a very 
bad choice by Morsi to impose an unpopular and undemocratic constitution and cut 
the revolutionary movement in half.   But with electoral process there was a 
chance of  bringing the generals under civilian rule  and that is gone, the 
Mubarak regime is being pardoned and the Egyptians are back to square one with 
only a growth of corpses, many jailed leaders and lucid clarity about the the 
military torture state they live in.
> On Mar 18, 2014, at 6:06 PM, David Morris wrote:
> 
> > So you think the uprising was illegal?  All uprisings are illegal, until 
they succeed. The powers in charge either accede to the political demands, or 
they are deposed, or the put down the uprising then and prosecute or kill the 
participants.
> >
> > Were you outspoken against the Egyptian 2013uprising in which Morsi was 
deposed?
> >
> > The mixed crowd in the Ukraine? Are they better off without Yanukovich?  
They were willing to die for that result, but only after he started killing them 
in the streets.  Should they have backed down?
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:41 AM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
> > David, it's hard to believe that you'd want to live under the rule of this 
"mixed crowd," a coalition of neo-Nazis, oligarchs, and political opportunists. 
If there's a prominent spokesperson for human rights among them, I haven't been 
able to ferret them out in the descriptions I've read of them. Which part of 
this mixture excites you? The austerity measures they're going to endorse in 
exchange for NATO bases? Unlike the Greeks, the Portuguese, et al, I'm sure the 
average Ukrainian will be thrilled to see wages  and benefits cut, teachers 
fired, and all the other great perks of austerity.
> >
> > It was widely believed by roughly half of Americans that Bush illegally 
stole the election from Gore. Seething as we Blue Staters were under the Bush 
regime, suppose a coalition of Tea Party zealots, Goldman Sachs execs, neo-cons, 
and, oh, say, Sam Walmart (or whatever the hell his name is) had declared the 
government illegitimate and staged an "uprising." And pointed to all the 
progressive demonstrators who'd previously been protesting Bush's policies as 
proof that this was a broadly supported democratic "uprising."  And mind you, 
I'm not even adding any foreign interference into the mix. Why do the Ukrainian 
people deserve less than we do? Their former government was shitty, but they had 
an upcoming shot at voting it out. Why is something that I'm pretty sure  you 
and I would never tolerate in our own country, not only good enough for citizens 
of the Ukraine, but worth reviving the Cold War to support?
> >
> > Some additional thoughts from a Scottish editorialist, re: China
> >
> > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/10700292/Why-China-is-right-on-the-future-of-Ukraine.html#disqus_thread
> >
> > Laura
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Morris
> >
> >
> > You say coup. I say uprising.
> > You say neo-Nazi. I say mixed crowd.
> >
> > On Tuesday, March 18, 2014, Thomas Eckhardt <thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de> 
wrote:
> > Am 18.03.2014 03:00, schrieb David Morris:
> >
> >        an illegal coup against Ukraine's democratically elected leader.
> >
> > The man was a brutal thug profiteer, like Putin.  He chose to be
> > ejected. I don't even care who you think led this coup.  That word makes
> > you look silly.  As silly as ping pong.
> >
> > That this was a coup is undisputable.
> >
> > You don't care whether the United States support neo-Nazis? I find this very 
sad.
> >
> > Thomas (table tennis player, silly me)
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> > - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >
> 
> -
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