NP - Germany Won't Budge on Austerity: Economic Suicide is Character Building

Thu Oct 16 18:00:04 CDT 2014

Looks like a bank, not a casino, to me.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102087207

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> Try reading what I say all the way to the 2nd paragraph.  The earlier "largest casino.." comment is not mine but a quote of Michael Snyder. He is a blogger and lawyer and his ideas are his own. I actually only quoted him because he was quoted by Automatic Earth who usually quotes economists who write for respected journals and the core idea has appeared in several dissident and mainstream economists including Warren Buffet.
>  I am trying to offer an honest critique of Krugmanism but without response. But I am tired of writing in paragraphs and being answered in one liners. Enough.  On Oct 16, 2014, at 4:45 PM, David Morris wrote:
>
>> My comments are about the here and now of World Recessions of varying severity in the US and the EU.  Your comments are about "the largest casino in the history of the planet," and other evils of the empire. We are addressing different subjects.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> I don't think this is in any way a response to my comments. I never predict or call for a revolution, I predict that this empire is bloated and self destructive and it will either make life unbearable for any but a few or it will self destruct. If new structures replace it we can only hope they will reflect more than the aspirations of violent revolutionaries.
>>
>>  The Germans have in fact been called upon to underwrite the bailout of failed eurostates. I agree that Largess is the wrong word and they have gone along with Merkel expecting to preserve the EU and with it european stability  and their own economic strength.  But the whole thing is unraveling and Germans, who themselves are frugal, simply don't want to throw good money after bad. Debt simply gives more power to the bankers and they are the cause of many of the problems including a growing number of Germans in poverty despite the fact that they make some of the best stuff in the world and an above average social welfare system. I don't know what the answer is but it is the banks who demand "austerity" even though austerity is not being visited on them or the ever growing financial sector. There has to be a tax base for social services and shared infrastructure projects and part of the problem is that Friedmanism has let corporate and investment income evade the austerity of paying a fair share of the tax burden. I think Krugman is the one blowing smoke and you don't really address those points except with straw man nonsense.
>>
>> What is comical is that you are also pushing an idealistic Keynesian solution on Germany as though they are to blame. We had more to do with the real estate bubble than they did and have a long history of using the World Bank to pressure for austerity.
>>
>> Krugman utterly failed to see the coming 2008 meltdown and may not be as astute as you claim.  He was also much more excited to criticize Bush's war spending than Obama's equally expensive and failed militarism.
>>
>>
>> On Oct 15, 2014, at 11:22 PM, David Morris wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, October 15, 2014, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> > Austerity is a problem but so is spiraling debt. It is the German people who are resistant to largess and investment fueled by debt.
>> >
>> > Me:
>> > WTF are you talking about? "Largess and investment fueled by debt," means WTF?
>> > "Largess?" From whom to whom?  And do you propose Austerity as its Remedy, from whatever sin provokes this "largess."  Is it Santa Claus largess? Or a largess of Des Sade?
>> >
>> > But then I see, below, that your economics are not applicable until after a revolution that completes your ideal.  That's what I meant by "drama."
>> >
>> > Revolutions that achieve a noble ideal are exceedingly rare.  Good luck with yours.
>> >
>> > David Morris
>> >
>> >  On the global scale there is a deep fundamental imbalance in the risks, rewards, and power of the US and the large global banks vs everyone else- nations, local businesses, unemployed, those ruled by tyrants loyal to the US.  What you call drama and blame are simply a recognition that this is one seriously fucked up, nasty and unstable empire and that the myths that led to the 2008 meltdown are not manageable by Keynesian solutions because keynesian economics is based on the myth of infinite economic "growth" as much as Friedmanism is and both disguise the ecological  and social component of wealth and both provide cover for war and exploitation as an economic plus.
>> >   The problem is not austerity but the unequal application of austerity. We all need to contribute to a more sustainable economic model and that in some ways requires less blind consumerism, less unnecessary and carbon fueled travel,  more vibrant local economies favoring more of the wealth managed by a healthy middle and working class. The atmospheric carbon problem is real and immediate and very costly, the saturation of our food and land with dangerous chemicals is real and costly, the global shortage of clean water is real and the global instability and inequity produced by the militarism is part of all these problems. Cell phones and Ted talks are not going to fix everything. If austerity means sharing and facing these problems and changing our habits to make a liveable planet, then I am for austerity.
>> >
>> > Krugman imagines a new deal economy and a new deal commitment to social justice and that is not what the Democrats have stood for. They have cast their lot with the MIC and the banksters and big Oil. this has more in common with fascism than Keynesianism.
>> >
>> > The idea that moral thinking has nothing to contribute to economics has not proven true in human history.
>> >
>> > On Oct 15, 2014, at 9:46 PM, David Morris wrote:
>> >
>> > > Your post doesn't address the question of Austerity.  Fly off to drama and blame if you want.  Austerity does include a moral facet to economics. Austerity seems to project an individual's economic wisdom onto the whole of economic theory.  Economics ain't that simple.  I mostly ascribe to Keynes re. Depression economic theory.  Krugman makes sense to me.  I am trying to advocate for the best now bandage.
>> > >
>> > > All of your points are about politics and power.  I agree that Banks are carnivores.  We can't let them run wild. They think not about issues bigger that immediate profit, and ways to  keep that profit continuing forever, as big as possible, damn the consequences.
>> > >
>> > > David Morris
>> > >
>> > > On Wednesday, October 15, 2014, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> > > Highly debatable set of assertions disputed by many economists, particularly those who predicted the 2008 debacle. The " recovery' is once again fueled by questionable derivatives, and war profiteering." In a September 24th article titled “5 US Banks Each Have More Than 40 Trillion Dollars In Exposure To Derivatives, Michael Snyder warns:
>> > >
>> > > Trading in derivatives is basically just a form of legalized gambling, and the “too big to fail” banks have transformed Wall Street into the largest casino in the history of the planet. When this derivatives bubble bursts (and as surely as I am writing this it will), the pain that it will cause the global economy will be greater than words can describe.
>> > > The too-big-to-fail banks have collectively grown 37% larger since 2008. Five banks now account for 42% of all US loans, and six banks control 67% of all banking assets.
>> > >
>> > > Besides their reckless derivatives gambling, these monster-sized banks have earned our distrust by being caught in a litany of frauds. In an article in Forbes titled “Big Banks and Derivatives: Why Another Financial Crisis Is Inevitable,” Steve Denning lists rigging municipal bond interest rates, LIBOR price-fixing, foreclosure abuses, money laundering, tax evasion, and misleading clients with worthless securities.This is not real economic strength but the power of an empire facing self destruction. "
>> > >
>> > >  The EU was based on flawed presumptions and even Germany is having to face that.
>> > > On Oct 14, 2014, at 6:03 AM, alice malice wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Well, one could argue that the US recovery is a jobless one, that is,
>> > > > a recovery that exposes shrinking labor force, much of it demographic
>> > > > baby boomer retirement etc.,  though the jury is still out on the
>> > > > cyclical or structural causes of the shrinking labor force, and, wages
>> > > > have not budged, but neither has inflation, though the US is not, as
>> > > > Europe is, in a dis-inflationary and deflationary cycle...so, to make
>> > > > a long story short, one can argue that the US has a weak recovery, one
>> > > > that has not done all that much for wage earners, the poor, the
>> > > > working classes,  but one can not argue that the US has no recovery.
>> > > > We have a major recovery in place. Europe does not. And, the US has
>> > > > put the financial crisis behind, has built a new energy policy and
>> > > > structure, has positioned itself for additional growth. Not so in
>> > > > Europe.  These are not nationalistic claims. Simple economics. Our
>> > > > housing crisis is over, our banking crisis is over, our massive QE is
>> > > > ending, our economy has recovered and, though it faces headwinds from
>> > > > Europe, Japan, the geo-politials, it will, as the IMF says, pull the
>> > > > world economy, not China, not the BRICS plus SA.
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Otto <ottosell at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> Can't see that "America has recovered". And your "Union" is as split
>> > > >> as ours, economically and ethnically.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> 2014-10-13 15:07 GMT+02:00 David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>:
>> > > >>> Clearly this response shows the weakness of the Euro: the "Union" is a
>> > > >>> farce.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> But Germany won't be able to stand alone for long.  If Europe is screwed, so
>> > > >>> is Germany.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 3:53 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
>> > > >>> <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> On 12.10.2014 12:09, alice malice wrote:
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Europe is screwed. And Germany is only doing what it needs to do to
>> > > >>>> get in a better position to recover over the longer term.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Amen!
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >> -
>> > > >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> > > > -
>> > > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > -
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