The right preposition? (np)

[kelber at mindspring.com]

In GR, Professor Jamf manages to avoid the clumsiness of prepositions in his instructive Kryptosam brochure:

"It is suggested, in cryptographic applications, that a proper stimulus be included with the message which will reliably produce tumescence and ejaculation. A thorough knowledge of the addressee's psychosexual profile would seem of invaluable aid."

Laura



-----Original Message-----

From: Michael Bailey 

Sent: Sep 28, 2014 1:02 AM

To: 

Cc: P-list 

Subject: Re: The right preposition? (np)



I'm actually much more interested in writing about the implications of Pynchon's (and secondarily, other authors') depictions of queerness in its various forms than about displaying my own predilections, which I suppose may itself be a form of deviance. However, I did open the thread...but it was in the cause of exploring word choice as a form of deviance, the specific vocabularies of various lifestyles, and the adventures of Cyprian...specifically, whither goeth Pynchon with Cyprian in the mix? Nothing so nekulturny as "Brit = gay!" Nor is he saying "the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton and Harrow, and the imperialist domination implicit in colonialism was fashioned in their dormitories" although the scurrilous bent of my mind finds that all too easy to propose. But to enmesh a British character so thoroughly in the swirlings of the nascent Counterforce in AtD, and to choose Cyprian as that Englishman, and to lavish on him all manner of insights, character development and all that jass, it might mean something.
If I come off as gay (no pun intended) that is maybe like Chandler, where his friends ("Friends") all admit they sense in him a certain quality in that direction, although in his case it may be due to the sweater vests. I can tell you that I usually dress much more butchly, and on a hypothetical desert island with a same sex fellow in misfortune, I envision living out my days sans any such action...but so what? 
Some people feel differently and that's interesting to me.
For instance, John Rechy's _Book of Numbers_ where he details a lot of experiences, or Samuel Delany's autobiography. Like other Demi-mondes, there does seem to be a lot of pain and suffering involved in the lifestyle - but the heterosexual tout-le-monde if you will is not unfraught with those qualities as well (or as ill) and even celibacy has obvious drawbacks. As they used to say in the Bayer Aspirin commercial, "what's a mother to do?"



On Sep 21, 2014, at 7:33 PM, Quizael <quizael at gmail.com> wrote:

Youre email was so long and I kept getting interrupted, for example I am now on my way to Ikea against my will, but I think you mentioned being gay. Which, I know how offensive this is, but I cant help it, ive always thought you are gay.  But youre also the most brilliant contributor to this absurd list, if that helps.
Is "off" a presupposition?  I mean preposition.  Whats the difference, jeez. Because really, one jerks off, not masturbate upon.  If youre jerking off to an image, whether it be in ones head or on screen, same thing, then it's to.  If you jerk off on, then to would have to be on something, preferably a nice set of titties.  But it could be a quality set of balls too.  And obviously, you can jerk off with someone, to something, on each other.  Probably not while standing on line, though in some very specific areas of this country you could.  Lets see, youre in Orlando, so probably not, although there are probably dudes who jerk each other off standing on line to watch Tiger Woods tee off. If im wrong and youre more to the east coast, obviously everything is admissable on the east coast of Florida. 



Sent on the new Sprint Network

-------- Original message --------
From: Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> 
Date: 09/20/2014  10:38 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> 
Cc: P-list <pynchon-l at waste.org>, Qui Zael <quizael at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: The right preposition? (np) 

Well it's a downright silly debate, anyway. But you both made some really good points.
A little Pynchon reference, to GR where I think in a Leni passage there's the woman's frustration about the man's tendency to avoidance by going off and masturbating, a passage written before much militant feminist prose about the ability of women to go and do likewise, which found its way into Vineland and BE to be sure...
Anyway I was basically just sharing my primal word-assignment, my langue rather than parole...as in high school before I encountered much if any prose or conversation about masturbation (first sighting in Summerhill by AS Neill, I thought it meant mass psychology from the context, learned differently when trying to use it in conversation) I had a night job cleaning offices and spotted a pinup in somebody's cubicle and thought of it as something one might go home, remember, and "masturbate on."
"To" is universally used, so this word choice is a form of queerness, a deviation. The old idiom, "thinking on" something may be a cognate. In many other respects my choices are far more conventional, but in this wee way, at least, I have a solidarity with queerness.
If that is jacks or better for playing my queer card, 

I want to relate my interest in exploring this difference to the Cyprian character in AtD, as contextually it seems to me that Pynchon's own predilection is manifestly not a gay one, though in GR he utilizes many forms of queerness to shock, because that's the kind of book it is, thoughtful, sure, but sensationalist... whereas the effort to incorporate really quite a lot of Cyprian's reality eventually brings him into a normative reality that includes his predilection but doesn't let him rest in it. That is, he isn't brought in as condiment but as an entree, with Pynchon sauce. Like Pynchon's women, he is presented as a best guess Terra incognita. And fitted into a Pynchonian schema.
That is, he didn't simply find that he had a preference different to the majority, but was led into it by an uncle. He's capable of love, but most strongly loves Yashmeen. His old schoolmate Ratty holds out the prospect of marriage jokingly as something to avoid, something like, "take care you never meet up with my wife, she'll have you married off before you can blink." So his milieu, and Pynchon, I think, relate to his queerness as hetero gone astray (and jovially mocked while celebrated by Ratty, a way to remain in a boys-only domain, or in another passage related to a different schoolmate's fondness for a horse) - while recognizing his humanity, never able to fully understand/grok/accept his choice. If choice it is.
The culmination of all this in the 3 way love scene I really don't think is meant to shock. It's more like Reef, not any kind of deep thinker, wants to include him and doesn't mind a bit of transgressiveness with his "lawbreaking hands"- while Yashmeen, who is all kinds of deep thinker, builds a place for him in her baby's creche.
That the place includes humiliation, and to affirm his place in it he leaves wolldly life for monasticism indicates the holiness of procreation in AtD - to be a part of fruitfulness and multiplying changes him along the same lines as his compassion for the dude with the broken leg, and further!
The strong suggestion that it is specifically Cyprian's mouthful of Reef's semen that fertilizes Yashmeen - who certainly cannot be wholly satisfied with a rounder like Reef - or at least that it's Cyprian's contribution in some way that completes the equation for her, makes her satisfied to bring new life into the world makes me want to mention the role of celibate priesthood.
Not in any offensive way, but as a development in a violent world where people with emotional or physical damage --- or whose fancy led them in a different direction for whatever reason -- might not want to raise children but by a Tolstoyan accunulation of individual choices, developed a different role in which monastic communities served as places to develop new technology, agriculture, wine, books and the art of discourse.
That non-procreative sex might be a way for people to minister unto each other (or themselves) is gently suggested by Cyprian to Reef when he offers a role reversal, but Reef in refusing brings up the phantom honor and Cyprian is not in a position to press the point.
However, in the cartoon I linked to, I was bemused by the idea of Reef as knight and Cyprian as bishop, in that it did seem that Cyprian (whose father regarded his lifestyle choice as a failed test...but an almost inevitable one and not very tragic, quietly accepted like Frank's failure to mate up with the Native American Estrella) accumulated experiences leading him closer and closer to a religious role.
That it was the "insolent mouth" of Cyprian that piqued Yashmeen so, reminds me of the many stories in Butler's Lives of the Saints where people refuse marriage, refuse commands, refuse comfortable arrangements in order to do something else which they consider worth dying for.


On Sep 18, 2014 12:02 AM, "David Morris" <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

>

> Also "while."  A temporal measure.

>

> Pynchon has forever made borders, definitions, language, his playground for existential debate.  He likes his koans, (today called postmodern, but yesterday called a consideration on reality) on as many levels as can be included.  His aesthetics are expansive, and still knife sharp.

>

> David Morris

>

>

> On Wednesday, September 17, 2014, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>> Pre-position relative to some datum, a border between things? I think it should mean a relationship, a state of position re. things/beings, with their relative mental/spatial locations.

>>

>> I would  love a challenge for debate while on good weed, with bear hairs sneeky-creeping up my butt crack.

>>

>> To, for, between, with.

>>

>> David Morris

>>

>> On Wednesday, September 17, 2014, Quizael <quizael at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>> Not that I dont greatly admire a full blooded masturbatory discussion of certain propositional, or positional, erectile usages, sausages (no, no), but my personal preference, or performance, is to assuage the de-bate with drugs on a bear rug.  Then the tugs begun.

>>>

>>> I dont even know what a preposition is.  I suppose it presupposes something.  Or pre-positions, something.  A line, say. Then you are in to it, on it.  And by that I mean any number of lovelinesses that presuppose there even being a bear rug.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Sent on the new Sprint Network

>>>

>>>

>>> -------- Original message --------

>>> From: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>

>>> Date: 09/17/2014 9:01 PM (GMT-06:00)

>>> To: Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>

>>> Cc: P-list <pynchon-l at waste.org>

>>> Subject: Re: The right preposition? (np)

>>>

>>> "On" implies physical touch. "To" implies a parallel, "along with," more separate relation.

>>>

>>> "On" might be followed with "drugs," or "a bear rug."  Something directly felt.

>>>

>>> "To" would be followed by "porn," or "music."  Something more cerebral, less tactile.

>>>

>>> That's my take.

>>>

>>> David Morris 

>>>

>>>

>>> On Wednesday, September 17, 2014, Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> Masturbating "to" something..I guess like dancing to a song.

>>>> The usage is nearly universal, I haven't seen any exceptions.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Even though there are so many pronouns.

>>>> Above, near, toward, on, inspired by, with thoughts of...

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Just, I have always thought it should be "masturbating 'on' some entity"

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> "To" is like, really overstating the case. The best you could honestly say you are masturbating with respect to someone is "towards" - am I not right?  

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Whereas "on" implies on as in on/off (the upstate downstate demon), plus the connotation of something that is perpetrated but tolerated, as in "getting horny on [someone]" also being affected by, as in getting "drunk (so to speak) on the mere thought of you" or the Heart song "crazy on You", as well as "getting it on" 

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Like the difference between standing on line in New York City, and standing in line anywhere else I've ever been, I guess it doesn't matter. Or does it?
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l