Brilliantly, sadly observed

Sat Dec 5 01:11:53 CST 2015

I just want to clarify that, by "twisted", I don't mean evil or malign.
Just kind of contorted and needlessly over-complicated by (in my opinion)
barely-there "nuance" that is a pretty good exemplar of false equivalence.

J

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 1:16 AM, Steven Koteff <steviekoteff at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Mark, (and everybody), thanks for participating on this.
>
> For what it's worth, I'm still reading, and will keep doing so as long as
> anybody still feels like posting.
>
> On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n24/james-meek/a-raqqa-of-the-mind
>>
>> I think I'm done posting on this topic.
>> We know where we stand (as Bartleby is always saying).
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:09 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> > Well I was clearly wrong in my memory of the verifiable timeline.
>> Still, if,
>> > as the article indicates, it is widely believed in the region that we
>> did Ok
>> > the Iraqi attack, and it is known that we then did support this war. The
>> > effective message combined with other US actions are that power is
>> achieved
>> > with war. Not that we invented this particular idea.
>> >
>> > The thing that I see is the parallel between Wahabi notions of divine
>> war of
>> > the faithful, and our notions of being appointed to bring the true way
>> > through strategic bombing. Both sides seem to have found good reasons to
>> > think of the other as demonic. They are beliefs that are equally
>> insane, and
>> > equally violent and destructive  in their net effect.  I don’t know what
>> > will work but check out this interview with a captive of ISIS.
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/nicolas-henin-the-man-who-was-held-captive-by-isis-for-10-months-says-how-they-can-be-defeated-a6757336.html
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I hope, Joseph, that you are willing to concede this point to continue
>> the
>> > debate.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> > By the way, the same article in Wikipedia said that it is commonly
>> believed
>> > in the gulf states that the US did give the go ahead to Saddam. So the
>> net
>> > impact of our policies is in line with what I said in my list.
>> >> On Dec 2, 2015, at 1:05 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> This is from Wikipedia
>> >> However I appear to have overstated the case with insufficient evidence
>> >> and  to have been off in my timeline. Imperfect memory.  Still, once
>> we gave
>> >> our support to this venture, the net effect within my larger argument
>> that
>> >> the US was endorsing the seizure of territory remains intact.
>> >>
>> >>   United States support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War, against
>> >> post-revolutionary Iran, included several billion dollars' worth of
>> economic
>> >> aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry,
>> military
>> >> intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in
>> warfare
>> >> against Iran.[3][4]
>> >>
>> >> Support from the U.S. for Iraq was not a secret and was frequently
>> >> discussed in open session of the Senate and House of Representatives.
>> On
>> >> June 9, 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline that the
>> "Reagan/Bush
>> >> administrations permitted—and frequently encouraged—the flow of money,
>> >> agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to
>> >> Iraq."[5]
>> >>> On Dec 2, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> This isn't as wrong as it could possibly be, but it's getting there.
>> Keep
>> >>> plugging.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:52 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>> We supplied weapons, advisors and as the global superpower fully
>> endorsed
>> >>> it. If we had not done so it is highly doubtful that Saddam would have
>> >>> started it.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2015, at 7:14 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What US policies in particular led to the creation of ISIS?  1)we
>> ok’d
>> >>>> the idea of seizing land through war by provoking and helping the
>> Iraqi war
>> >>>> on Iran
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> We ok'd it?  How about the fact that the two nations were generally
>> >>>> hostile toward one another for a long time. How about Islam? The
>> Bath party
>> >>>> was rightfully fearful that Khomeini would stir up rebellion in
>> southern
>> >>>> Iraq. How about territorial disputes, especially the conflict over
>> the Shatt
>> >>>> al-'Arab River.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The dispute over the Shatt Al-Arab waterway threatens once more to
>> >>>> derail the peace talks between Iraq and Iran, and could ultimately
>> end the
>> >>>> truce between the two countries. However, as this historical account
>> shows,
>> >>>> the controversy involving this shallow, 127-mile-long strategic
>> waterway has
>> >>>> been the subject of treaties signed in 1843, 1937, and 1975, and
>> continues
>> >>>> to loom as an intractable problem.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> http://www.wrmea.org/1989-april/the-shatt-al-arab-obstacle-to-iran-iraq-peace.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -
>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> -
>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>> >
>> > -
>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >
>> >
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>
>
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