And NOWHERE is Pynchon mentioned!

[Mark Kohut]

no...agree...see 'family resemblances" re erudition, 'ideas', naive
and sentementisch. ....that is P's erudition LAYERS his
vision...structures in many ways his vision.

and, novels are of a continuum not either pole, imho.



On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Ray Easton
<raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com> wrote:
> But "a novel is erudite" and "a novel is a novel of ideas" do not mean at
> all the same thing, do they?  For example (I am sure there are better ones),
> surely _Lolita_ is not a novel of ideas.
>
> Ray
>
> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>
>
>
> On December 14, 2015 3:02:53 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> A pretty massive project, no? I can't do it.
>>
>> But what I mean is stuff like this: the riff on charisma (in the
>> post-war era) for example.  Right from Max Weber.
>>
>> The bits of anarchism as a value and something that may be a branch of
>> Buddhism sprinkled throughout.
>>
>> the Rilke.
>>
>> even simply the way he uses a Crystal Palace....with its doubled
>> allusion to the great Exhibiit....
>>
>> see how other novelists just write it straight, no layering of erudition.
>>
>> so much more...
>>
>> mark
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm still curious in which sense is, say, GR a novel of ideas? Of course
>>> it
>>> is full of many felicitously presented abstruse and difficult thoughts,
>>> but,
>>> what I'd really like to see discussed are its ideas in the sense of
>>> opinions, hopes, or beliefs. Could someone  develop a list of these, and
>>> say
>>> whether they are, in the course of the novel, sought after, attained,
>>> rejected, or given up as hopeless.  Does Slothrop's quest, for example,
>>> qualify as one of these?
>>>
>>> I need to be enlighten as much as Tyrone.
>>>
>>> P
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What you said, Peter (and well). It's hard to cut through the
>>>> accumulated
>>>> undergrowth of
>>>>
>>>> "Pynchon books are status tokens for pretentious hipsters with post-horn
>>>> tattoos who never actually get through anything but CoL49"
>>>>
>>>> "Pynchon is the perfect starting point for another look at those wild &
>>>> wacky Sixties, [because I, the litchat writer, never got through
>>>> anything
>>>> but CoL49 and a review of Vineland]"
>>>>
>>>> "Pynchon is funny names, pop-culture references, stylistic acrobatics,
>>>> kinky sex, and a Britannica + Google's worth of obscure historical and
>>>> scientific allusions"
>>>>
>>>> "Pynchon holds the Salinger Chair of Reclusive Authorship, so he's weird
>>>> from the jump because he's never sat down with Charlie Rose or been
>>>> photographed birding with Jonathan Franzen"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter M. Fitzpatrick
>>>> <petopoet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is my two cents.
>>>>>
>>>>>      I love to read Pynchon because of his absolute bravery and
>>>>> uninhibited imagination. His "ideas" are never lifeless, neutral, or
>>>>> abstract, but embodied, political, and provocative. He takes chances
>>>>> that
>>>>> remind me a great deal of James Joyce in Finnegans Wake. I don't think
>>>>> Joyce
>>>>> was particularly concerned with the hoi polloi or popularity and
>>>>> neither he
>>>>> or Pynchon will EVER be found among the books sold in the big box
>>>>> stores
>>>>> like Target, WalMart, Menards, etc. (this is an American phenomenon,
>>>>> where
>>>>> the likes of Cussler, Grisham, Patterson, etc, are found in the far
>>>>> reaches
>>>>> of almost every mass-market shelf space available, with one or two
>>>>> copies of
>>>>> each author present, changing with each new release.)
>>>>>       There is room for this kind of literature,of course, but there
>>>>> are
>>>>> those of us who demand a more inventive and boundary-testing fare.
>>>>> Pynchon
>>>>> does manage to ascend into pure lyrical poetry that almost demands
>>>>> aural
>>>>> interpretation - I do enjoy listening to an audio version of "Against
>>>>> the
>>>>> Day". Finnegans Wake is also best read aloud and listened to. These are
>>>>> poetic voices and are suitable for analysis of their poetics.  Much
>>>>> like
>>>>> Bakhtin devoted his life to analyzing the poetics of Dostoyevski, there
>>>>> will
>>>>> be scholars devoted to studying both Joyce and Pynchon. Yes, some of
>>>>> this
>>>>> smacks of the academic machinery that produces English department
>>>>> secondary
>>>>> source reductions that misinterpret and misconstrue. But that is the
>>>>> nature
>>>>> of interpretation. It is polyvalent and polyphonic (ala' Bakhtin) by
>>>>> rights.
>>>>> There is a reason such books attract scholastic attention.
>>>>>       They are ideas, voices, conceptions; "Weltanschauungs" in short.
>>>>> Simultaneously political, historical, and philosophical, I think we
>>>>> intuitively characterize them as novels of Ideas because they last
>>>>> longer
>>>>> than the commercial ones, thereby resembling Plato's World of Forms, or
>>>>> Ideals. Not quite eternal, no, but of more lasting value than say, a
>>>>> Janet
>>>>> Evanovich # 55,  ( I have read one or two of hers, by the way.)
>>>>>
>>>>>    -Pete
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If inclusion on course syllabuses is indicative of the respect
>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>> have for an author, than our man P is respected in the academy. His
>>>>>> works
>>>>>> are taught at all the tier one Colleges and highest ranked
>>>>>> Universities in
>>>>>> the US, at State Universities and Colleges,  to humanities and
>>>>>> non-humanities students.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm glad there are some out there who respect our guy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
>
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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