M&D - Chap 10 - pgs 96-97

Mark Kohut mark.kohut at gmail.com
Mon Feb 16 13:11:05 CST 2015 

Lotsa jargon in this 'academic' discussion....You, Jochen,  and Becky
have been more clearly direct.

Yes, I see them backing up Becky's perspective then adding a lot of
related stuff...

They say M & D is not "diegetic realism"......seems right to me.

Which is why we are trying to
find some non-realistic meanings, among other things.....right?

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:59 PM, jochen stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Even nearer to the thoughts of our host:
>
> "While in the past Pynchon has toyed with stylistic references to film and
> television in his narrative techniques, particularly in Gravity's Rainbow
> and Vineland, in Mason & Dixon he establishes from the outset his narrating
> voice on the basis of an overt reference to these media, which
> simultaneously creates the possibility of a radically re-imagined
> incarnation of the extra-heterodiegetic narrator while also pointing to the
> necessity that this remains an essentially literary construct that signifies
> as novelistic, rather than cinemagraphic, narrative. Pynchon is inspired by
> the technique in film and television (which I will call a narrated
> flashback) whereby a character begins orally recounting a story, event or
> situation and their narrating voice fades as the scene in which they are
> present switches to the scene they are describing, which is then played out
> according to its own requirements, with the narrator's voice-over returning
> at certain moments and the scene even switching back occasionally to the
> original setting for the sake of a discussion or enquiry in that context."
>
>
>
> 2015-02-16 19:54 GMT+01:00 Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>:
>>
>> Thanks jochen...I am going to read this by tomorrow, of course..
>>
>> But the quoted words seem to me to be about just what Becky is always
>> saying....
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:48 PM, jochen stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > It is only now that I did look up the external link provided near the
>> > bottom
>> > of the wikipedia page to M&D: An academic dissertation on structure and
>> > sentiment in Mason & Dixon.
>> >
>> > That text is not only free, it's great. And not only because it has
>> > something to say about the narrators of M&D that seems to come near the
>> > points I was making in that regard. Especially the pages 63ff. Whoever
>> > is
>> > interested in getting to the heart of that matter should read these 10
>> > or so
>> > pages dedicated to it. Keeping in mind : "a truism of all reading, is
>> > particularly useful when reading any of Pynchon's works: trust the
>> > narration
>> > without reflecting on it excessively; become immersed in it and stay
>> > immersed; trust your instincts, because if something, however bizarre,
>> > seems
>> > to be happening, it probably is."
>> >
>> >
>> > 2015-02-16 19:31 GMT+01:00 Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> yes, your perspective convinced me---along with that camera, Becky's
>> >> camera, back when
>> >> this first came up. IMHO.
>> >>
>> >> Someone else vote or argue?
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > The reason I'm saying this now (and I'm open to change) is that I
>> >> > sense
>> >> > Pynchon is presenting Cherrycoke as a story-teller and the story he
>> >> > is
>> >> > telling is the (hi)story of Mason & Dixon.  When we tell stories we
>> >> > say
>> >> > stuff like "Once upon a time..."  (or "A Jesuit, a Corsican and a
>> >> > Chinaman
>> >> > walked into a barroom,")  and go on as though we were omniscient
>> >> > narrators.
>> >> > That's what I think Cherrycoke is doing and how Pynchon is using him
>> >> > to show
>> >> > us that oral/written history is unreliable - he's turning it on its
>> >> > pointy
>> >> > head and using anachronisms etc. -  (flat out errors?)
>> >> >
>> >> > This comes up more directly later when in Chapter 11 someone asks
>> >> > Cherrycoke how he can know what happened on St. Helena considering he
>> >> > wasn't
>> >> > there.  (He doesn't give any kind of good answer.)
>> >> >
>> >> > Pynchon is showing us that history is unreliable because of the
>> >> > narrators.   This isn't "event" history - this is oral/written
>> >> > history -
>> >> >
>> >> > Becky
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Feb 16, 2015, at 7:32 AM, jochen stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >And now back to Mason and Dixon at the Cape - where Cherrycoke is
>> >> >> > back
>> >> >> > to being our ** unreliable yet omniscient narrator**  again -
>> >> >> > (sounds like
>> >> >> > an oxymoron but it certainly works) -<
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As I said before, I don't think they are one and the same: There is
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> omniscient narrator who tells us about Cherrycoke who is the
>> >> >> narrator with
>> >> >> his limited point of view, who says "I" sometimes, as reliable as
>> >> >> you and
>> >> >> me, who is kicked out of the house if he don't behave.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2015-02-16 16:16 GMT+01:00 Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>:
>> >> >> Moving along -
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ***  p. 96 -  "A Vector of Desire" -   Lacan -
>> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_of_desire
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://pmc.iath.virginia.edu/issue.903/14.1burns.html  (I'm sure
>> >> >> this
>> >> >> has been posted prior -  it's
>> >> >> "Postmodern Historiography: Politics and the Parallactic Method in
>> >> >> Thomas Pynchon's Mason & Dixon" by Christy L. Burns )
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Celestial Trigonometry"?
>> >> >> Are we mapping the skies?  Putting the solar system on a grid? Is
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> why Pynchon "started at the beginning?"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> *
>> >> >> "Somebody somewhere in the world, watching the Planet go dark
>> >> >> against
>> >> >> the Sun ... (quotes) from Sappho's Fragment 95...":
>> >> >> "Oh Hesperus, - you bring back all that the dark night scatter'd, -
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> bring in the sheep, and the goat, - you bring the Child back to her
>> >> >> mother."
>> >> >> (Pynchon uses the H. T. Wharton translation):
>> >> >> http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/sappho/sape08u.htm
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So what's Pynchon's reasoning in having "someone"
>> >> >> misread/misinterpret
>> >> >> the Hesperus,  the *evening Venus*  as the Transit Venus of the
>> >> >> morning?
>> >> >> Showing the idea of misreading?  Misinterpreting?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Just prior to that quote there is the line that says this misread
>> >> >> interruption is  "...seeming to wreck the *Ob,*" - the "Ob"? -
>> >> >> Observation, of course, but which one?  1.  It could be the
>> >> >> observation of
>> >> >> the Transit itself (perhaps as displayed in the orrery)  or 2.  it
>> >> >> could be
>> >> >> Cherrycoke's observation about it with "Vector of Desire" and all
>> >> >> being so
>> >> >> appropriate.  - The question is - are our #1 type  observations also
>> >> >> misinterpretations?  What does that do to history and/or events?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> **
>> >> >> "A sort of long black Filament yet connects her to the Limb of the
>> >> >> Sun,
>> >> >> tho' she be moved will onto its Face..."  "This, or odd behavior
>> >> >> like it, is
>> >> >> going on all over the World all day long that fifth and sixth of
>> >> >> June..."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "... as if the Creation's Dark Engineer had purposedly arrang'd the
>> >> >> Intervals thus, to provoke a certain Instruction, upon the limits to
>> >> >> human
>> >> >> grandeur by Mortality."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Satan?  Death?  This is the first of the pair of Transits - 1761 and
>> >> >> 1769 - then not again until 1874 and 1882 followed by 2004 and 2012
>> >> >> and then
>> >> >> not again until 2117 / 2125.
>> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Venus#History_of_observation
>> >> >>
>> >> >> **
>> >> >> And now back to Mason and Dixon at the Cape - where Cherrycoke is
>> >> >> back
>> >> >> to being our ** unreliable yet omniscient narrator**  again -
>> >> >> (sounds like
>> >> >> an oxymoron but it certainly works) -
>> >> >>
>> >> >> **
>> >> >> Extra credit resource:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Mason and Dixon at the Cape - 4 pages -
>> >> >> Title: Mason and Dixon at the Cape
>> >> >> Authors: MacKenzie, T.
>> >> >> Journal: Monthly Notes of the Astronomical Society of South Africa,
>> >> >> Vol. 10, p. 99
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1951MNSSA..10...99M/0000099.000.html
>> >> >> The  clocks and observatory are mentioned on page 100 but also see
>> >> >> page
>> >> >> 99 - they're all kind of interesting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> **************
>> >> >>
>> >> >> p. 97 -
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Zeeman and Vroom households "speed about" getting ready for the
>> >> >> Transit - the morning is foggy.  This is likely the case as per the
>> >> >> "Journal's Monthly Notes"  noted above - p. 99. (So no metaphor is
>> >> >> necessarily intended, but the possibility should not be excluded.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Dutch Ado about nothing."   -  groan - lol -   The slaves seem
>> >> >> somewhat amused by the behavior of "their owners."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ****************
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please add, subtract, argue, define, categorize, compare, contrast,
>> >> >> delineate, deconstruct, verify,  obfuscate, clarify, etc. as you
>> >> >> will -
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Becky -
>> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > -
>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >
>> >
>
>
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l

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