M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110

Mon Feb 23 04:32:27 CST 2015

 Basically, the narrative voices are like the voices hidden in GR's
telling, with this understanding?

And that 'omniscient narrator' has, basically, the same storytelling
tone/selectivity of Cherrycoke? It puts
the delayed answer of Mason's into the story---"he might say'...[I
have read this as the witty comeback
Mason did not have in time hence the "might'.]

Do we think Cherrycoke heard most of these stories from Mason & Dixon?
hasn't it always been clear
that he wasn't with them for much of the story? If so, how do we judge
when it isn't him?

Who tells the "Hallo,d'you think he'll get much of a hard-on, then? is
her Greeting." line?
If an 'omniscient' narrator then that narrator is coterminous with
Cherrycoke (for the purposes of the 'historical' fiction)
By that I mean that line is the 20th Century overlay of a line that
would never be said in the 18th Century. It is
a line full of Pynchon's layering of notions of Freudian, NOBrownian
death-wish within Desire and sex as the 'small death'
and more, imho. I think believing it is Cherrycoke speaking, oblivious
to those meanings adds to the book.

I think, given the first sentence above it doesn't matter much.
Pynchon lets us have a narrator who isn't always
Cherrycoke---I see it mostly when Pynchon gives us background
information, so to speak, and creates the atmosphere
behind his [Pynchon's ] vision, the larger ideas.

And, contra Jochen and Laura, as I've said before, Cherrycoke is not
withholding most bawdy stuff because of his audience;
they are the audience; it is what they want; they overtly talk bawdy,
just follow Tenebrae (via omniscient narrator if
you read it that way) and the boys are "worse".

Fops are mentioned on 112 and soon Pynchon will reinforce, double down
on, the storytelling fiction of it all.

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:53 PM, jochen stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I think so, too. Anyway, the "Hum, hum, howbeit, -" from Cherrycoke
> seems to carry some embarrassment, and with Laura's explanation he has two
> reasons for it - for lapsing into silent reverie (while his audience is
> still sitting there) and for the topic of the reverie.
>
> And the second passage you mention is Very interesting because of its
> shifting nature, from "he might say" over "She will not blink" (tho' her
> nostrils may flare) to "she scowls". Which narrator is conducting that?
> Certainly not the Reverend. He's not only omniscient, he's shifting the
> gears of the narrative's reality (or so it seems to me).
>
> 2015-02-22 18:43 GMT+01:00 <kelber at mindspring.com>:
>>
>> I read the "Uncle, Uncle!" interjection as a sign that Cherrycoke had
>> lapsed into silent revery (or fantasy) about topics inappropriate for his
>> audience.
>>
>> There's a passage on p. 111 (sorry to get ahead!): "Mason gapes in
>> despair. He'll be days late thinking up any reply to speech as sophisticated
>> as this. 'In my experience,' he might say ..." But then Mason's whole
>> conversation with Florinda is recounted. Is the conversation still
>> conditional: these are the things that Mason might say? Or is this
>> Cherrycoke's version, aloud, or in revery?
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>
>> >Sent: Feb 22, 2015 11:39 AM
>> >To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> >Subject: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>> >
>> >Continuing Chapter 11 - in St. Helena - with Maskelyne, Mason & Dixon -
>> >
>> >Page 109
>> >
>> >Visitors to St. Helena, especially women and other than slaves - almost
>> > listed and compared to "Birds of Passage":
>> >Convicts
>> >Young Wives,
>> >Company Perpetuals
>> >(such shuttles upon the loom of Trade as Mrs. Rollright - ah - what an
>> > apparently appropriate name)
>> >Mrs. Rollright - aka Florinda - and she recognizes Mason -
>> >
>> >
>> >*** Okay  - someone has to ask it - what's with the little ditties strung
>> > throughout - and throughout all of PYnchon's work - is this a nod to Joyce
>> > that really touched the spirit of Pynchon and he couldn't resist?  Parodies?
>> > Parallax?
>> >
>> >I can't copy anything from this source:  "Music in Thomas Pynchon's Mason
>> > & Dixon"  - it's 36 pages long including Notes.  I didn't have to register
>> > or anything like that - just asked for .pdf and scrolled down.
>> >https://www.pynchon.net/owap/article/view/75/170
>> >
>> >***********
>> >"While other writers, like James Joyce, have invoked parallax as a
>> > perspectival method in order to challenge univocal narrative form, Pynchon
>> > works the concept more radically into his fictional treatment of
>> > historiography.[4] "
>> >
>> >More at:  http://pmc.iath.virginia.edu/issue.903/14.1burns.html
>> >
>> >****
>> >Page 110:
>> >
>> >**  Some omniscient narrator presents the backstory of Mason takes to
>> > attending public hangings following Rebekah's death.
>> >
>> >"Wapping was also the site of 'Execution Dock', where pirates and other
>> > water-borne criminals faced execution by hanging from a gibbet constructed
>> > close to the low water mark. Their bodies would be left dangling until they
>> > had been submerged three times by the tide.[2]"
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapping
>> >
>> >Lower-situated imitations of the "Hellfire Club"
>> >Hell-Fire Club -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club  (of the
>> > times in England)
>> >also see:
>>
>> > >http://www.masondixon.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chapter_11:_105-115#Page_110
>> >
>> >Hangings on Tyburn - here we have the famous gallows - ended in 1783
>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyburn#Tyburn_gallows
>> >
>> >And what a beautiful line:
>> >
>> >** "To the Fabulators of  Grub Street, a licentious night-world of Rakes
>> > and Whores, surviving only in memories of pleasure, small darting winged
>> > beings, untrustworthy as remembrancers ... "
>> >
>> >(a nod to the untrustworthiness of memory)
>> >Grub Street:
>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grub_Street
>> >
>> >continuing:   "... yet its infected, fragrant, soiled encounters 'neath the
>> > Moon were as worthy as any, -  an evil-in-innocence..."
>> >
>> >
>> >(Even though untrustworthy,  memories are valuable in some way -
>> > "evil-in-innocence"  because memories are like wolves in sheep's clothing? -
>> >
>> >******
>> >And in a total discontinuance from the narrative although apparently in
>> > response to it:
>> >("Uncle, Uncle!"... )  etc.
>> >This is Tenebræ and the Cherrycoke kids breaking in, isn't it?  Probably
>> > because Cherrycoke is getting too close to subjects inappropriate for the
>> > ears of children?  -  "Rakes and Whores" and what not.
>> >
>> >*********
>> >
>> >Becky
>> >
>> >-
>> >Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
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