M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
kelber at mindspring.com
kelber at mindspring.com
Tue Feb 24 14:57:45 CST 2015
Tenebrae strikes me as a young woman of some depth, smart and sarcastic. Cousin Ethelmer might send her heart aflutter, but she's nowhere close to worshipping him.
[p. 106]:
"'What's the mystery?' Ethelmer shrugs. 'Didn't Days take twenty-four Hours to pass, as they do now?'"
Brae peers thro' the candle-light. 'Why Coz, how interesting.'"
Laura
-----Original Message-----
>From: Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>
>
>Mark asks,
>> Women in this book are all "like' Venuses..are just about all of them
>> inciting sexual responses all the time, yes? More male fantasies of
>> history, or any time, anywhere, I think the tale-telling set up clues
>> us to. "French Women!"...Then there is Tenebrae.
>> A pynchonian level that 'sez', women do want love...?
>
>One of my minor interests in rereading M&D is to come to some kind of idea (not conclusion) of how Pynchon is treating women here - NOT in all his books as I sense a big change between Slow Learner and Bleeding Edge.
>
>Yes, (tentatively) in M&D so far the women seem pretty much to be “Venuses,” diversions, sex interests. But I think this might change when we come to Rebekah in a couple chapters and I can’t remember much about Martha Washington and a few other women later on. I think it’s really too early to tell about generalizations. (That’s true of other generalizations, too.)
>
>Besides, to this point, all the minor characters, obviously NOT Mason & Dixon, are rather flattish, based on stereotypes, sometimes funny creatures, caricatures, etc. And so far they are different kinds of women even if a common use of them is for sex and diversion.
>
>We have the gorgeous and ambitious floozy (Florinda), and uppity white women (the Vroom ladies), a great slave woman (Austra) who apparently has some choice about which "white sprig” to use to gain a child. (Johanna can’t very well command one of them - heh.) Tenabræ (young flirt?) is a puzzle, but there is a sexual connotation hiding behind kissing cousins bit, to say nothing of the flaring nostrils. And Euphrenia, (old flirt- or suggestive old lady) although she is musical, claims to have a "past,” having lived in the Sultan’s harem chambers, etc.
>
>Fwiw, I have no general problem with an author using women for sexual diversions in some books - there can be a lot of variety there and that may work within a theme. Or it may be true of the times - the So Cal beach scene in the 1970s (but that’s the theme, so … )?
>
>Becky
>
>
>
>> On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:03 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Whether Wicks or that 'other' narrator, my take is that Pynchon wanted
>> to 'deepen' Mason's character with this Gothic death-love dimension of
>> his grief. He hit it hard; pushed it, as is his wont, to an extreme;
>> this scene comes close to one of the 'obscene ones in GR, I reckon.
>> Grief for a loved one can make us feel 'half in love with easeful
>> death'. Pynchon wanted to link such death love with the Puritan
>> character, I suggest, with the Death drive as part of the attitudes to
>> living that Mason & Dixon embody as they embody the range of a
>> society, the society of the time and the US of A on the way---and to
>> the present in that parallax scope.
>>
>> And he brings in another life-loving woman(?) who gets a little wet
>> thinking of the possible erections of the hanged and just brings that
>> up with Mason, who gets chatted up a lot better at the hanging than he
>> chats up.....exercising her female flirtatiousness.....
>>
>> Women in this book are all "like' Venuses..are just about all of them
>> inciting sexual responses all the time, yes? More male fantasies of
>> history, or any time, anywhere, I think the tale-telling set up clues
>> us to. "French Women!"...Then there is Tenebrae.
>> A pynchonian level that 'sez', women do want love...?
>>
>> As with metempsychosis, another Ulysses homage?
>> -- There's one thing it hasn't a deterrent effect on, says Alf.
>>
>> -- What's that? says Joe.
>>
>> -- The poor bugger's tool that's being hanged, says Alf.
>>
>> -- That so? says Joe.
>>
>> -- God's truth, says Alf. I heard that from the head warder that was in
>> Kilmainham when they hanged Joe Brady, the invincible. He told me when
>> they cut him down after the drop it was standing up in their faces
>> like a poker.
>>
>> -- Ruling passion strong in death, says Joe, as someone said.
>>
>> -- That can be explained by science, says Bloom. It's only a natural
>> phenomenon, don't you see, because on account of the...
>>
>> And then he starts with his jawbreakers about phenomenon and science
>> and this phenomenon and the other phenomenon.
>>
>> The distinguished scientist Herr Professor Luitpold Blumenduft
>> tendered medical evidence to the effect that the instantaneous
>> fracture of the cervical vertebrae and consequent scission of the
>> spinal cord would, according to the best approved traditions of
>> medical science, be calculated to inevitably produce in the human
>> subject a violent ganglionic stimulus of the nerve centres, causing
>> the pores of the cobra cavernosa to rapidly dilate in such a way as to
>> instantaneously facilitate the flow of blood to that part of the human
>> anatomy known as the penis or male organ resulting in the phenomenon
>> which has been dominated by the faculty a morbid upwards and outwards
>> philoprogenitive erection in articulo mortis per diminutionem capitis.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> DE> maybe Mason's dark obsessions, and journeys, "by Ferry", are him (as
>>> Demeter...), following Rebekah into the land of the dead
>>>
>>> Orpheus going after Eurydice would require fewer sex changes, and P has done
>>> a lot with Orpheus before and since M&D. In general, my impression is that
>>> his underworld/afterlifes (possibly including the eleven days in this book?
>>> the Thanatoids? The revenant Reg Despard in BE? the interior of the earth
>>> here and in AtD?) lean more to a Greek Hades -- gray, joyless -- than to a
>>> Christian heaven or hell.
>>>
>>> And we're still left with the bottom of p. 110 -- if Wicks is narrating,
>>> *after* he has been awakened and/or brought back to awareness that the boys
>>> are listening: "'Twas then Mason began his Practice, each Friday, of going
>>> out to the hangings at Tyburn, expressly to chat up women," and his first
>>> flirtatious encounter with Florinda, complete with discussion of how the
>>> hanged are hung.
>>>
>>> The dichotomy of roistering good-time lad Dixon and mournful Rebekah-fixated
>>> Mason is so consistent throughout the book that this bit really stands out
>>> -- I think, is *meant* to stand out -- on subsequent readings. I can't make
>>> sense of it as gratuitous embroidery on Wicks' part, or as a tag-end of some
>>> alternate Masonic lifeline like the Sumatran fantasies.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:38 PM, David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> While reading the passage about those "Birds of passage thro' St. Helena,"
>>>> particularly the "Almost to a woman, they confess to strange and
>>>> inexpressible Feelings when the
>>>> ship makes landfall,-- the desolate line of peaks, the oceanic
>>>> sunlight..." part, I got the image of so many Persephones in transit between
>>>> the land of the living and the Underworld. Under Eleusinian Mysteries,
>>>> wikipedia describes the myth of Persephone and Demeter as:
>>>> "a cycle with three phases, the "descent" (loss), the "search" and the
>>>> "ascent", with the main theme the "ascent" of Persephone and the reunion
>>>> with her mother.
>>>> A sort of Gravity's Rainbow, right? So maybe Mason's dark obsessions, and
>>>> journeys, "by Ferry", are him (as Demeter...), following Rebekah into the
>>>> land of the dead (what's that do to a lens, I wonder...)?
>>>>
>>>> And the song? I'm not sure who's narrating (I've got a sense there's a
>>>> parallax-type thing going on between us and Pynchon and Cherrycoke, who
>>>> reminds me a bit of the Cretan who tells us all Cretans are liars), but it's
>>>> fun to imagine it with some oboe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 23, 2015, at 10:17 AM have a nice day, violet wrote this message:),
>>>> <kelber at mindspring.com> <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, two narrators, omniscient and Cherrycoke, the first of whom plays
>>>> with time and space; the second of whom alters facts to suit his audience,
>>>> plays at biographer, and lapses into fantasies of other people's fantasies,
>>>> thoughts and experiences.
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: jochen stremmel
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Feb 23, 2015 12:33 PM
>>>>
>>>> To: Becky Lindroos
>>>>
>>>> Cc: kelber , pynchon -l
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just have to figure there are "nested narrators" in this book<
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry if I am repeating myself but until now, p. 111, it seems to me that
>>>> there are only two narrators, one Primary Narrator (to take Upton's term),
>>>> that of the first sentence for example and of the bigger part of paragraph 4
>>>> in chapter 3, to give another one, and Cherrycoke - and I wouldn't call him
>>>> unreliable, not if the word should be more than a truism, because everybody
>>>> - even TRP (who is no narrator but a storyteller, too (albeit a storyteller
>>>> who gives us kind of a tapestry of realities)) - has his limits and we, the
>>>> readers, have to decide if we should trust them or not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2015-02-23 15:38 GMT+01:00 Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>:
>>>> On Feb 22, 2015, at 9:43 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I read the "Uncle, Uncle!" interjection as a sign that Cherrycoke had
>>>> lapsed into silent revery (or fantasy) about topics inappropriate for his
>>>> audience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's a passage on p. 111 (sorry to get ahead!): "Mason gapes in
>>>> despair. He'll be days late thinking up any reply to speech as sophisticated
>>>> as this. 'In my experience,' he might say ..." But then Mason's whole
>>>> conversation with Florinda is recounted. Is the conversation still
>>>> conditional: these are the things that Mason might say? Or is this
>>>> Cherrycoke's version, aloud, or in revery?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could be! I just have to figure there are "nested narrators" in this
>>>> book and some of them are more apparent than others. I think I'll call
>>>> Cherrycoke the "story-teller" who becomes an "omniscient narrator" while
>>>> he's telling much of the inner story. But he and his audience are
>>>> "transported" to his fantasy-land so it all becomes a notch more "real,"
>>>> especially in the case of Mason.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mason has a huge memory section in a few chapters - when he meets Rebekah
>>>> and the cheese rolling (one of my really favorite parts of the whole book -
>>>> memorable).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Feb 22, 2015 11:39 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Continuing Chapter 11 - in St. Helena - with Maskelyne, Mason & Dixon -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Page 109
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visitors to St. Helena, especially women and other than slaves - almost
>>>> listed and compared to "Birds of Passage":
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Convicts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Young Wives,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Company Perpetuals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (such shuttles upon the loom of Trade as Mrs. Rollright - ah - what an
>>>> apparently appropriate name)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mrs. Rollright - aka Florinda - and she recognizes Mason -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *** Okay - someone has to ask it - what's with the little ditties strung
>>>> throughout - and throughout all of PYnchon's work - is this a nod to Joyce
>>>> that really touched the spirit of Pynchon and he couldn't resist? Parodies?
>>>> Parallax?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't copy anything from this source: "Music in Thomas Pynchon's Mason
>>>> & Dixon" - it's 36 pages long including Notes. I didn't have to register
>>>> or anything like that - just asked for .pdf and scrolled down.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.pynchon.net/owap/article/view/75/170
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ***********
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "While other writers, like James Joyce, have invoked parallax as a
>>>> perspectival method in order to challenge univocal narrative form, Pynchon
>>>> works the concept more radically into his fictional treatment of
>>>> historiography.[4] "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More at: http://pmc.iath.virginia.edu/issue.903/14.1burns.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Page 110:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ** Some omniscient narrator presents the backstory of Mason takes to
>>>> attending public hangings following Rebekah's death.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Wapping was also the site of 'Execution Dock', where pirates and other
>>>> water-borne criminals faced execution by hanging from a gibbet constructed
>>>> close to the low water mark. Their bodies would be left dangling until they
>>>> had been submerged three times by the tide.[2]"
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapping
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lower-situated imitations of the "Hellfire Club"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hell-Fire Club - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club (of the
>>>> times in England)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> also see:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.masondixon.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chapter_11:_105-115#Page_110
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hangings on Tyburn - here we have the famous gallows - ended in 1783
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyburn#Tyburn_gallows
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And what a beautiful line:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ** "To the Fabulators of Grub Street, a licentious night-world of Rakes
>>>> and Whores, surviving only in memories of pleasure, small darting winged
>>>> beings, untrustworthy as remembrancers ... "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (a nod to the untrustworthiness of memory)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Grub Street:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grub_Street
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> continuing: "... yet its infected, fragrant, soiled encounters 'neath the
>>>> Moon were as worthy as any, - an evil-in-innocence..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (Even though untrustworthy, memories are valuable in some way -
>>>> "evil-in-innocence" because memories are like wolves in sheep's clothing? -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ******
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And in a total discontinuance from the narrative although apparently in
>>>> response to it:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ("Uncle, Uncle!"... ) etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is Tenebræ and the Cherrycoke kids breaking in, isn't it? Probably
>>>> because Cherrycoke is getting too close to subjects inappropriate for the
>>>> ears of children? - "Rakes and Whores" and what not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *********
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Becky
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> -
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> -
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