M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
Mark Kohut
mark.kohut at gmail.com
Tue Feb 24 16:02:33 CST 2015
Agree. A young woman outta a Shakespeare comedy. Sarcastic as Beatrice ( in a small role way)
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 24, 2015, at 2:57 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Tenebrae strikes me as a young woman of some depth, smart and sarcastic. Cousin Ethelmer might send her heart aflutter, but she's nowhere close to worshipping him.
>
> [p. 106]:
>
> "'What's the mystery?' Ethelmer shrugs. 'Didn't Days take twenty-four Hours to pass, as they do now?'"
>
> Brae peers thro' the candle-light. 'Why Coz, how interesting.'"
>
> Laura
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>
>
>>
>> Mark asks,
>>> Women in this book are all "like' Venuses..are just about all of them
>>> inciting sexual responses all the time, yes? More male fantasies of
>>> history, or any time, anywhere, I think the tale-telling set up clues
>>> us to. "French Women!"...Then there is Tenebrae.
>>> A pynchonian level that 'sez', women do want love...?
>>
>> One of my minor interests in rereading M&D is to come to some kind of idea (not conclusion) of how Pynchon is treating women here - NOT in all his books as I sense a big change between Slow Learner and Bleeding Edge.
>>
>> Yes, (tentatively) in M&D so far the women seem pretty much to be “Venuses,” diversions, sex interests. But I think this might change when we come to Rebekah in a couple chapters and I can’t remember much about Martha Washington and a few other women later on. I think it’s really too early to tell about generalizations. (That’s true of other generalizations, too.)
>>
>> Besides, to this point, all the minor characters, obviously NOT Mason & Dixon, are rather flattish, based on stereotypes, sometimes funny creatures, caricatures, etc. And so far they are different kinds of women even if a common use of them is for sex and diversion.
>>
>> We have the gorgeous and ambitious floozy (Florinda), and uppity white women (the Vroom ladies), a great slave woman (Austra) who apparently has some choice about which "white sprig” to use to gain a child. (Johanna can’t very well command one of them - heh.) Tenabræ (young flirt?) is a puzzle, but there is a sexual connotation hiding behind kissing cousins bit, to say nothing of the flaring nostrils. And Euphrenia, (old flirt- or suggestive old lady) although she is musical, claims to have a "past,” having lived in the Sultan’s harem chambers, etc.
>>
>> Fwiw, I have no general problem with an author using women for sexual diversions in some books - there can be a lot of variety there and that may work within a theme. Or it may be true of the times - the So Cal beach scene in the 1970s (but that’s the theme, so … )?
>>
>> Becky
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:03 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Whether Wicks or that 'other' narrator, my take is that Pynchon wanted
>>> to 'deepen' Mason's character with this Gothic death-love dimension of
>>> his grief. He hit it hard; pushed it, as is his wont, to an extreme;
>>> this scene comes close to one of the 'obscene ones in GR, I reckon.
>>> Grief for a loved one can make us feel 'half in love with easeful
>>> death'. Pynchon wanted to link such death love with the Puritan
>>> character, I suggest, with the Death drive as part of the attitudes to
>>> living that Mason & Dixon embody as they embody the range of a
>>> society, the society of the time and the US of A on the way---and to
>>> the present in that parallax scope.
>>>
>>> And he brings in another life-loving woman(?) who gets a little wet
>>> thinking of the possible erections of the hanged and just brings that
>>> up with Mason, who gets chatted up a lot better at the hanging than he
>>> chats up.....exercising her female flirtatiousness.....
>>>
>>> Women in this book are all "like' Venuses..are just about all of them
>>> inciting sexual responses all the time, yes? More male fantasies of
>>> history, or any time, anywhere, I think the tale-telling set up clues
>>> us to. "French Women!"...Then there is Tenebrae.
>>> A pynchonian level that 'sez', women do want love...?
>>>
>>> As with metempsychosis, another Ulysses homage?
>>> -- There's one thing it hasn't a deterrent effect on, says Alf.
>>>
>>> -- What's that? says Joe.
>>>
>>> -- The poor bugger's tool that's being hanged, says Alf.
>>>
>>> -- That so? says Joe.
>>>
>>> -- God's truth, says Alf. I heard that from the head warder that was in
>>> Kilmainham when they hanged Joe Brady, the invincible. He told me when
>>> they cut him down after the drop it was standing up in their faces
>>> like a poker.
>>>
>>> -- Ruling passion strong in death, says Joe, as someone said.
>>>
>>> -- That can be explained by science, says Bloom. It's only a natural
>>> phenomenon, don't you see, because on account of the...
>>>
>>> And then he starts with his jawbreakers about phenomenon and science
>>> and this phenomenon and the other phenomenon.
>>>
>>> The distinguished scientist Herr Professor Luitpold Blumenduft
>>> tendered medical evidence to the effect that the instantaneous
>>> fracture of the cervical vertebrae and consequent scission of the
>>> spinal cord would, according to the best approved traditions of
>>> medical science, be calculated to inevitably produce in the human
>>> subject a violent ganglionic stimulus of the nerve centres, causing
>>> the pores of the cobra cavernosa to rapidly dilate in such a way as to
>>> instantaneously facilitate the flow of blood to that part of the human
>>> anatomy known as the penis or male organ resulting in the phenomenon
>>> which has been dominated by the faculty a morbid upwards and outwards
>>> philoprogenitive erection in articulo mortis per diminutionem capitis.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> DE> maybe Mason's dark obsessions, and journeys, "by Ferry", are him (as
>>>> Demeter...), following Rebekah into the land of the dead
>>>>
>>>> Orpheus going after Eurydice would require fewer sex changes, and P has done
>>>> a lot with Orpheus before and since M&D. In general, my impression is that
>>>> his underworld/afterlifes (possibly including the eleven days in this book?
>>>> the Thanatoids? The revenant Reg Despard in BE? the interior of the earth
>>>> here and in AtD?) lean more to a Greek Hades -- gray, joyless -- than to a
>>>> Christian heaven or hell.
>>>>
>>>> And we're still left with the bottom of p. 110 -- if Wicks is narrating,
>>>> *after* he has been awakened and/or brought back to awareness that the boys
>>>> are listening: "'Twas then Mason began his Practice, each Friday, of going
>>>> out to the hangings at Tyburn, expressly to chat up women," and his first
>>>> flirtatious encounter with Florinda, complete with discussion of how the
>>>> hanged are hung.
>>>>
>>>> The dichotomy of roistering good-time lad Dixon and mournful Rebekah-fixated
>>>> Mason is so consistent throughout the book that this bit really stands out
>>>> -- I think, is *meant* to stand out -- on subsequent readings. I can't make
>>>> sense of it as gratuitous embroidery on Wicks' part, or as a tag-end of some
>>>> alternate Masonic lifeline like the Sumatran fantasies.
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:38 PM, David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> While reading the passage about those "Birds of passage thro' St. Helena,"
>>>>> particularly the "Almost to a woman, they confess to strange and
>>>>> inexpressible Feelings when the
>>>>> ship makes landfall,-- the desolate line of peaks, the oceanic
>>>>> sunlight..." part, I got the image of so many Persephones in transit between
>>>>> the land of the living and the Underworld. Under Eleusinian Mysteries,
>>>>> wikipedia describes the myth of Persephone and Demeter as:
>>>>> "a cycle with three phases, the "descent" (loss), the "search" and the
>>>>> "ascent", with the main theme the "ascent" of Persephone and the reunion
>>>>> with her mother.
>>>>> A sort of Gravity's Rainbow, right? So maybe Mason's dark obsessions, and
>>>>> journeys, "by Ferry", are him (as Demeter...), following Rebekah into the
>>>>> land of the dead (what's that do to a lens, I wonder...)?
>>>>>
>>>>> And the song? I'm not sure who's narrating (I've got a sense there's a
>>>>> parallax-type thing going on between us and Pynchon and Cherrycoke, who
>>>>> reminds me a bit of the Cretan who tells us all Cretans are liars), but it's
>>>>> fun to imagine it with some oboe.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 23, 2015, at 10:17 AM have a nice day, violet wrote this message:),
>>>>> <kelber at mindspring.com> <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, two narrators, omniscient and Cherrycoke, the first of whom plays
>>>>> with time and space; the second of whom alters facts to suit his audience,
>>>>> plays at biographer, and lapses into fantasies of other people's fantasies,
>>>>> thoughts and experiences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Laura
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: jochen stremmel
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Feb 23, 2015 12:33 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> To: Becky Lindroos
>>>>>
>>>>> Cc: kelber , pynchon -l
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I just have to figure there are "nested narrators" in this book<
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry if I am repeating myself but until now, p. 111, it seems to me that
>>>>> there are only two narrators, one Primary Narrator (to take Upton's term),
>>>>> that of the first sentence for example and of the bigger part of paragraph 4
>>>>> in chapter 3, to give another one, and Cherrycoke - and I wouldn't call him
>>>>> unreliable, not if the word should be more than a truism, because everybody
>>>>> - even TRP (who is no narrator but a storyteller, too (albeit a storyteller
>>>>> who gives us kind of a tapestry of realities)) - has his limits and we, the
>>>>> readers, have to decide if we should trust them or not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2015-02-23 15:38 GMT+01:00 Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>:
>>>>> On Feb 22, 2015, at 9:43 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I read the "Uncle, Uncle!" interjection as a sign that Cherrycoke had
>>>>> lapsed into silent revery (or fantasy) about topics inappropriate for his
>>>>> audience.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a passage on p. 111 (sorry to get ahead!): "Mason gapes in
>>>>> despair. He'll be days late thinking up any reply to speech as sophisticated
>>>>> as this. 'In my experience,' he might say ..." But then Mason's whole
>>>>> conversation with Florinda is recounted. Is the conversation still
>>>>> conditional: these are the things that Mason might say? Or is this
>>>>> Cherrycoke's version, aloud, or in revery?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Laura
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Could be! I just have to figure there are "nested narrators" in this
>>>>> book and some of them are more apparent than others. I think I'll call
>>>>> Cherrycoke the "story-teller" who becomes an "omniscient narrator" while
>>>>> he's telling much of the inner story. But he and his audience are
>>>>> "transported" to his fantasy-land so it all becomes a notch more "real,"
>>>>> especially in the case of Mason.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mason has a huge memory section in a few chapters - when he meets Rebekah
>>>>> and the cheese rolling (one of my really favorite parts of the whole book -
>>>>> memorable).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Feb 22, 2015 11:39 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Continuing Chapter 11 - in St. Helena - with Maskelyne, Mason & Dixon -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Page 109
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visitors to St. Helena, especially women and other than slaves - almost
>>>>> listed and compared to "Birds of Passage":
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Convicts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Young Wives,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Company Perpetuals
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (such shuttles upon the loom of Trade as Mrs. Rollright - ah - what an
>>>>> apparently appropriate name)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mrs. Rollright - aka Florinda - and she recognizes Mason -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *** Okay - someone has to ask it - what's with the little ditties strung
>>>>> throughout - and throughout all of PYnchon's work - is this a nod to Joyce
>>>>> that really touched the spirit of Pynchon and he couldn't resist? Parodies?
>>>>> Parallax?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't copy anything from this source: "Music in Thomas Pynchon's Mason
>>>>> & Dixon" - it's 36 pages long including Notes. I didn't have to register
>>>>> or anything like that - just asked for .pdf and scrolled down.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.pynchon.net/owap/article/view/75/170
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ***********
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "While other writers, like James Joyce, have invoked parallax as a
>>>>> perspectival method in order to challenge univocal narrative form, Pynchon
>>>>> works the concept more radically into his fictional treatment of
>>>>> historiography.[4] "
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> More at: http://pmc.iath.virginia.edu/issue.903/14.1burns.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ****
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Page 110:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** Some omniscient narrator presents the backstory of Mason takes to
>>>>> attending public hangings following Rebekah's death.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Wapping was also the site of 'Execution Dock', where pirates and other
>>>>> water-borne criminals faced execution by hanging from a gibbet constructed
>>>>> close to the low water mark. Their bodies would be left dangling until they
>>>>> had been submerged three times by the tide.[2]"
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapping
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lower-situated imitations of the "Hellfire Club"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hell-Fire Club - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club (of the
>>>>> times in England)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> also see:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.masondixon.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chapter_11:_105-115#Page_110
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hangings on Tyburn - here we have the famous gallows - ended in 1783
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyburn#Tyburn_gallows
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And what a beautiful line:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** "To the Fabulators of Grub Street, a licentious night-world of Rakes
>>>>> and Whores, surviving only in memories of pleasure, small darting winged
>>>>> beings, untrustworthy as remembrancers ... "
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (a nod to the untrustworthiness of memory)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Grub Street:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grub_Street
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> continuing: "... yet its infected, fragrant, soiled encounters 'neath the
>>>>> Moon were as worthy as any, - an evil-in-innocence..."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (Even though untrustworthy, memories are valuable in some way -
>>>>> "evil-in-innocence" because memories are like wolves in sheep's clothing? -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ******
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And in a total discontinuance from the narrative although apparently in
>>>>> response to it:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ("Uncle, Uncle!"... ) etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is Tenebræ and the Cherrycoke kids breaking in, isn't it? Probably
>>>>> because Cherrycoke is getting too close to subjects inappropriate for the
>>>>> ears of children? - "Rakes and Whores" and what not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *********
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Becky
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
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