Another Greif review

Sat May 23 07:00:49 CDT 2015

I suggest he was Left, or Liberal, in this way: his critique of History was that it had moved
Toward the anti-human. A left liberal believed THAT could have gone differently, and in incremental ways, still could. 

Conservatives, the Right, generally argue that the natural movement of History is the way of the (free) world, masking Power---that Pynchon bad shit--over the people. 

I agree that Pynchon transcends prosaic political ( as party, as policy) literalisms. 

Sent from my iPad

> On May 23, 2015, at 6:44 AM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure what a liberal is, or rather, what was meant when the statement was made, and how we might equate that with the terms Left, Old Left, New Left, but it seems obvious to me, anyway, that young Pynchon, the subject of his SL Introduction, was no kind of Lefty, and that after V., as the author notes on pages 22 and 23, as the author matures and shifts more toward Beat and specifically White Negro to California phase, with the publication of  "The Secret Integration" and the Watts Essay, Liberal, as in Post-JFK/James Bond phase and toward LBJ Great Society phase may be an appropriate description of the author, though with obvious latent issues of Archie Bunkerisms, but not Lefty. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ... the point having yet to have been  made.  I personally don't read
>> V. as leaning much either way, but the Watts essay + Lot 49 I believe
>> def. lean left(y), albeit not uncomplicatedly/uncritically so.  @ any
>> rate, Pynchon doesn't lend himself easily to any political position.
>> However ...
>> 
>> "We'd sit and talk for hours," she said. "We'd argue all the time. He
>> was a liberal and I was a conservative. Of course, he was always
>> smarter than I was."
>> 
>> http://www.theaesthetic.com/NewFiles/pynchon.html
>> 
>> + thanks to Doug Millison for preserving the "on the other hand" quote
>> I was looking for (+, as I recall, I 1st posted here, to no reaction
>> [no puns where none intended, to paraphrase S. Beckett] otherwise
>> whatsoever [?!]) ...
>> 
>> "Referring to conservative Cornellians (Wolfowitz is a 1965 Cornell
>> graduate in mathematics), Corn showed his familiarity with university
>> alumni when he said: 'I was accepted at Cornell and nearly attended.
>> Thank you for giving us both Thomas Pynchon and Ann Coulter.'"
>> 
>> http://pynchonoid.blogspot.com/2004/09/pynchon-coulter.html
>> 
>> http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/04/9.23.04/Corn-Lowry_debate.html
>> 
>> Meanwhile, here's an unexpected namedrop I found while poking around ...
>> 
>> "Among the graduates of the Ivy League Cornell are Ruth Bader
>> Ginsburg, Thomas Pynchon, Paul Wolfowitz, E.B. White, Sanford I.
>> Weill, Floyd Abrams, Kurt Vonnegut, Douglas Ginsburg, Janet Reno,
>> Henry Heimlich and Harold Bloom."
>> 
>> http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2009-03-04.html
>> 
>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:14 AM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Did someone say a collection of Pynchon's essays and letters, in
>> > chronological order had been collected and published?
>> >
>> > In 66, that is, three years after V., Pynchon groping through white negro
>> > phase. Lot49, Watts.
>> >
>> > In the SL Introduction (1984) and Luddite (1984), we see a shift emerging as
>> > Pynchon says, "It may yet turn out that racial differences are not as basic
>> > as questions of money and power (page 11 top), and in that same Intro he
>> > reads his own stories noting and taking interest in class struggle, but he's
>> > not there yet.
>> >
>> > I'm not gonna dig into V. again to make the point.
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 1:28 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't remember any evidence of this either. I'm not disputing you,
>> >> just never thought to ask the question.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > "he was no Lefty when he wrote V., and this is easy enough to get from
>> >> > the novel"
>> >> >
>> >> > How so?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> Pynchon ain't March, but that's another point; the point is, he was no
>> >> >> Lefty
>> >> >> when he wrote V., and this is easy enough to get from the novel, but P
>> >> >> published several essays about his formative years, including the most
>> >> >> revealing Intro to the SL collection, but also BDSL Intro, and others,
>> >> >> plus
>> >> >> the letters that have been made public, and these are proof that P was
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> conservative white boy, catholic boy who was a-political, and then,
>> >> >> like so
>> >> >> many of his generation, radicalized artistically and philosophically,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> politically and this shift, a California shift, if you will, was not
>> >> >> complete in GR, and even took on ironic, ambiguities (if you must) in
>> >> >> VL,
>> >> >> then moved Left in his major works about workers in Amerika.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> My quick 'take'.
>> >> >>>  V shows Pynchon was never an (old) Lefty. From the beginning we
>> >> >>> have a world-historical vision of enslavement in history and what we
>> >> >>> used to call back in the V. day: alienation.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Five decades later comes old Lefty, March.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 6:53 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> > JP, I'm interested in this: "It's difficult to argue that V., for
>> >> >>> > example, was written by a Lefty"
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Can you elaborate? I've never thought about this and am genuinely
>> >> >>> > intrigued.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > And FWIW I find Pynchon's later writing to be much more ambiguous,
>> >> >>> > politically speaking. Let's talk Small vs Big Government, anarchy,
>> >> >>> > collectivism, communitarian societies, individualism, corporation
>> >> >>> > politics, taxes, etc. My views on all of these are not the views I
>> >> >>> > had
>> >> >>> > when I first read (and loved) V. so, yeah, there's that.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> > wrote:
>> >> >>> >> I take issue. Major shifts in his work, get sure. But lotsa deep
>> >> >>> >> continuities, ESP re work, power in history and good shit on life.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On May 17, 2015, at 9:53 AM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Rules in Saint Jerome's theory of literary criticism, outlined by
>> >> >>> >> Foucalt in
>> >> >>> >> his famous "What is an author?":
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 1. if among several books attributed to an author one is inferior
>> >> >>> >> to
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> others, it must be withdrawn from the author's works
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 2. if one book contradicts the doctrine expounded in the others it
>> >> >>> >> must
>> >> >>> >> be
>> >> >>> >> withdrawn
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 3. if written in a different style, it must be withdrawn
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Foucault argues that modern criticism still defines authors in the
>> >> >>> >> same
>> >> >>> >> way.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Of course, lots of critics have noted major shifts in Pynchon
>> >> >>> >> "doctrine" and
>> >> >>> >> in quality and style.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> It's difficult to argue that V., for example, was written by a
>> >> >>> >> Lefty,
>> >> >>> >> and
>> >> >>> >> surely not by the same Left shifting Pynchon who wrote the SL
>> >> >>> >> Introduction
>> >> >>> >> where he says that he finds a substrate of economic forces that
>> >> >>> >> undermine,
>> >> >>> >> then, co-opt the qualities of the working class. In any event,
>> >> >>> >> there
>> >> >>> >> are
>> >> >>> >> clear and major shifts in Pynchon "doctrine", in how he sees work,
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> workers, the forces that weaken the workers and their champions.
>> >> >>> >> Rather
>> >> >>> >> than
>> >> >>> >> repeat the mantra that the red baiting government dismembered
>> >> >>> >> labor,
>> >> >>> >> Pynchon
>> >> >>> >> shows that forces more powerful than government, labor itself, and
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> tragic ironies of human relations were largely responsible. The
>> >> >>> >> rich
>> >> >>> >> and
>> >> >>> >> powerful Vibe is no match for the forces of Nature, ours and Hers,
>> >> >>> >> but
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> battle has left the planet bleeding on the edge.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Heikki R
>> >> >>> >> <situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Already "Vineland"?
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 7:10 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> I think that's generally true but in his recent offerings the
>> >> >>> >>>> ambiguity
>> >> >>> >>>> pro-offered is less ambiguous
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Mark Kohut
>> >> >>> >>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> or, since one of his 'values' seems to be anti-Either-Orness,
>> >> >>> >>>>> one
>> >> >>> >>>>> might reject the dichotomy in the choice as so presented and
>> >> >>> >>>>> embrace
>> >> >>> >>>>> the poised ambiguities of meanings.
>> >> >>> >>>>> As a value.
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Monte Davis
>> >> >>> >>>>> <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>> > "It becomes impossible to declare Pynchon's ultimate 'values'
>> >> >>> >>>>> > without
>> >> >>> >>>>> > exposing yourself to the embarrassing admission that you may
>> >> >>> >>>>> > just
>> >> >>> >>>>> > want
>> >> >>> >>>>> > Pynchon to share your values, and thus settle for one or
>> >> >>> >>>>> > another
>> >> >>> >>>>> > of
>> >> >>> >>>>> > his
>> >> >>> >>>>> > alternatives on that basis." (Mark Greif)
>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> > http://www.publicbooks.org/nonfiction/the-trouble-with-modernity
>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> -
>> >> >>> >>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > -
>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >
>> >
> 
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