Another Greif review

Sat May 23 08:38:37 CDT 2015

History as anti-human doesn't make one a Lefty. There are lots of
reactionaries who who fit that description.

On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> I suggest he was Left, or Liberal, in this way: his critique of History
> was that it had moved
> Toward the anti-human. A left liberal believed THAT could have gone
> differently, and in incremental ways, still could.
>
> Conservatives, the Right, generally argue that the natural movement of
> History is the way of the (free) world, masking Power---that Pynchon bad
> shit--over the people.
>
> I agree that Pynchon transcends prosaic political ( as party, as policy)
> literalisms.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 23, 2015, at 6:44 AM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what a liberal is, or rather, what was meant when the
> statement was made, and how we might equate that with the terms Left, Old
> Left, New Left, but it seems obvious to me, anyway, that young Pynchon, the
> subject of his SL Introduction, was no kind of Lefty, and that after V., as
> the author notes on pages 22 and 23, as the author matures and shifts more
> toward Beat and specifically White Negro to California phase, with the
> publication of  "The Secret Integration" and the Watts Essay, Liberal, as
> in Post-JFK/James Bond phase and toward LBJ Great Society phase may be an
> appropriate description of the author, though with obvious latent issues of
> Archie Bunkerisms, but not Lefty.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ... the point having yet to have been  made.  I personally don't read
>> V. as leaning much either way, but the Watts essay + Lot 49 I believe
>> def. lean left(y), albeit not uncomplicatedly/uncritically so.  @ any
>> rate, Pynchon doesn't lend himself easily to any political position.
>> However ...
>>
>> "We'd sit and talk for hours," she said. "We'd argue all the time. He
>> was a liberal and I was a conservative. Of course, he was always
>> smarter than I was."
>>
>> http://www.theaesthetic.com/NewFiles/pynchon.html
>>
>> + thanks to Doug Millison for preserving the "on the other hand" quote
>> I was looking for (+, as I recall, I 1st posted here, to no reaction
>> [no puns where none intended, to paraphrase S. Beckett] otherwise
>> whatsoever [?!]) ...
>>
>> "Referring to conservative Cornellians (Wolfowitz is a 1965 Cornell
>> graduate in mathematics), Corn showed his familiarity with university
>> alumni when he said: 'I was accepted at Cornell and nearly attended.
>> Thank you for giving us both Thomas Pynchon and Ann Coulter.'"
>>
>> http://pynchonoid.blogspot.com/2004/09/pynchon-coulter.html
>>
>> http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/04/9.23.04/Corn-Lowry_debate.html
>>
>> Meanwhile, here's an unexpected namedrop I found while poking around ...
>>
>> "Among the graduates of the Ivy League Cornell are Ruth Bader
>> Ginsburg, Thomas Pynchon, Paul Wolfowitz, E.B. White, Sanford I.
>> Weill, Floyd Abrams, Kurt Vonnegut, Douglas Ginsburg, Janet Reno,
>> Henry Heimlich and Harold Bloom."
>>
>> http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2009-03-04.html
>>
>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:14 AM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Did someone say a collection of Pynchon's essays and letters, in
>> > chronological order had been collected and published?
>> >
>> > In 66, that is, three years after V., Pynchon groping through white
>> negro
>> > phase. Lot49, Watts.
>> >
>> > In the SL Introduction (1984) and Luddite (1984), we see a shift
>> emerging as
>> > Pynchon says, "It may yet turn out that racial differences are not as
>> basic
>> > as questions of money and power (page 11 top), and in that same Intro he
>> > reads his own stories noting and taking interest in class struggle, but
>> he's
>> > not there yet.
>> >
>> > I'm not gonna dig into V. again to make the point.
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 1:28 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't remember any evidence of this either. I'm not disputing you,
>> >> just never thought to ask the question.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Dave Monroe <
>> against.the.dave at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > "he was no Lefty when he wrote V., and this is easy enough to get
>> from
>> >> > the novel"
>> >> >
>> >> > How so?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Jerome Park <
>> jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> Pynchon ain't March, but that's another point; the point is, he was
>> no
>> >> >> Lefty
>> >> >> when he wrote V., and this is easy enough to get from the novel,
>> but P
>> >> >> published several essays about his formative years, including the
>> most
>> >> >> revealing Intro to the SL collection, but also BDSL Intro, and
>> others,
>> >> >> plus
>> >> >> the letters that have been made public, and these are proof that P
>> was
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> conservative white boy, catholic boy who was a-political, and then,
>> >> >> like so
>> >> >> many of his generation, radicalized artistically and
>> philosophically,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> politically and this shift, a California shift, if you will, was not
>> >> >> complete in GR, and even took on ironic, ambiguities (if you must)
>> in
>> >> >> VL,
>> >> >> then moved Left in his major works about workers in Amerika.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> My quick 'take'.
>> >> >>>  V shows Pynchon was never an (old) Lefty. From the beginning we
>> >> >>> have a world-historical vision of enslavement in history and what
>> we
>> >> >>> used to call back in the V. day: alienation.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Five decades later comes old Lefty, March.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 6:53 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> > JP, I'm interested in this: "It's difficult to argue that V., for
>> >> >>> > example, was written by a Lefty"
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Can you elaborate? I've never thought about this and am genuinely
>> >> >>> > intrigued.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > And FWIW I find Pynchon's later writing to be much more
>> ambiguous,
>> >> >>> > politically speaking. Let's talk Small vs Big Government,
>> anarchy,
>> >> >>> > collectivism, communitarian societies, individualism, corporation
>> >> >>> > politics, taxes, etc. My views on all of these are not the views
>> I
>> >> >>> > had
>> >> >>> > when I first read (and loved) V. so, yeah, there's that.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Mark Kohut <
>> mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> > wrote:
>> >> >>> >> I take issue. Major shifts in his work, get sure. But lotsa deep
>> >> >>> >> continuities, ESP re work, power in history and good shit on
>> life.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On May 17, 2015, at 9:53 AM, Jerome Park <
>> jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Rules in Saint Jerome's theory of literary criticism, outlined
>> by
>> >> >>> >> Foucalt in
>> >> >>> >> his famous "What is an author?":
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 1. if among several books attributed to an author one is
>> inferior
>> >> >>> >> to
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> others, it must be withdrawn from the author's works
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 2. if one book contradicts the doctrine expounded in the others
>> it
>> >> >>> >> must
>> >> >>> >> be
>> >> >>> >> withdrawn
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> 3. if written in a different style, it must be withdrawn
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Foucault argues that modern criticism still defines authors in
>> the
>> >> >>> >> same
>> >> >>> >> way.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Of course, lots of critics have noted major shifts in Pynchon
>> >> >>> >> "doctrine" and
>> >> >>> >> in quality and style.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> It's difficult to argue that V., for example, was written by a
>> >> >>> >> Lefty,
>> >> >>> >> and
>> >> >>> >> surely not by the same Left shifting Pynchon who wrote the SL
>> >> >>> >> Introduction
>> >> >>> >> where he says that he finds a substrate of economic forces that
>> >> >>> >> undermine,
>> >> >>> >> then, co-opt the qualities of the working class. In any event,
>> >> >>> >> there
>> >> >>> >> are
>> >> >>> >> clear and major shifts in Pynchon "doctrine", in how he sees
>> work,
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> workers, the forces that weaken the workers and their champions.
>> >> >>> >> Rather
>> >> >>> >> than
>> >> >>> >> repeat the mantra that the red baiting government dismembered
>> >> >>> >> labor,
>> >> >>> >> Pynchon
>> >> >>> >> shows that forces more powerful than government, labor itself,
>> and
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> tragic ironies of human relations were largely responsible. The
>> >> >>> >> rich
>> >> >>> >> and
>> >> >>> >> powerful Vibe is no match for the forces of Nature, ours and
>> Hers,
>> >> >>> >> but
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> battle has left the planet bleeding on the edge.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Heikki R
>> >> >>> >> <situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Already "Vineland"?
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 7:10 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com
>> >
>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> I think that's generally true but in his recent offerings the
>> >> >>> >>>> ambiguity
>> >> >>> >>>> pro-offered is less ambiguous
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Mark Kohut
>> >> >>> >>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> or, since one of his 'values' seems to be anti-Either-Orness,
>> >> >>> >>>>> one
>> >> >>> >>>>> might reject the dichotomy in the choice as so presented and
>> >> >>> >>>>> embrace
>> >> >>> >>>>> the poised ambiguities of meanings.
>> >> >>> >>>>> As a value.
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Monte Davis
>> >> >>> >>>>> <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>> > "It becomes impossible to declare Pynchon's ultimate
>> 'values'
>> >> >>> >>>>> > without
>> >> >>> >>>>> > exposing yourself to the embarrassing admission that you
>> may
>> >> >>> >>>>> > just
>> >> >>> >>>>> > want
>> >> >>> >>>>> > Pynchon to share your values, and thus settle for one or
>> >> >>> >>>>> > another
>> >> >>> >>>>> > of
>> >> >>> >>>>> > his
>> >> >>> >>>>> > alternatives on that basis." (Mark Greif)
>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>> http://www.publicbooks.org/nonfiction/the-trouble-with-modernity
>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> -
>> >> >>> >>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > -
>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
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