Another Greif review

Sun May 24 06:10:29 CDT 2015

Yes, I remember. But what of his equally, no tougher critique of Organized
Labor, of the New Left culture in NYC, of Marx in that same work?

On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 5:16 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Agreeing with the Left on most things ought to be a definition of being a
> Lefty, in our discussion, unless one was so....all-inclusive as to also
> agree with the Right on most things. Yes?
> He does score on the political Right against the Bircherite and the Ayn
> Rander in the early works, remember?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 23, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A lot can change in 10 years, that is between V. and GR, and we can see a
> shift begin during V. then with TSI, then in Watts, Lot49, so, but I
> wouldn't say Pynchon was even then a Lefty, old or new. Agreeing with the
> Left on most things doesn't make one a Lefty.
>
> On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am ambivalent about my own arguments. You may be more Right than I
>> tried to argue. I was attempting to define what might be Left or Liberal
>> but nothing may really apply. ....the anti-Bomb ( d'uh) and anti-NIXON and
>> anti-WW2 Gravity's Rainbow may have made us--me--overthink the political
>> Left.
>>
>> My only question now is would any cultural or political conservative have
>> embraced the human opening up of the sixties as possibility as he seems to?
>> I remember many dim but famous bulbs excoriating them almost mercilessly.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On May 23, 2015, at 11:49 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Agree on deeper conservatives. Smith, Burke, Eliot and others I
>> mentioned. As well as some politicians.
>> And, since modernism, being a visionary reactionary has changed, right?
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On May 23, 2015, at 11:08 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We do have to acknowledge that many conservatives not the 1 percent mind
>> you Aren't concerned with free markets. There's something deeper. Not the
>> Michigan militia types either. The racists nope not them either.
>> Who isn't afraid of "the people"? A natural distrust of mass movements
>> and institutions. Been that way since the revolution.
>> Modern politics has been hacked by modern finance most glaringly in the
>> U.S and UK. Everyone rails against the abuses of Wall St and the City, left
>> and right.
>> I consider myself left of center but I no more believe government than
>> most conservatives do.
>> I see Pynch as a lifelong distrusted of institutions going back to the
>> SI. Hard to think his anarchist leanings haven't grown stronger. What
>> other viable choice is left?
>>
>> rich
>>
>> On Saturday, May 23, 2015, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I suggest he was Left, or Liberal, in this way: his critique of History
>>> was that it had moved
>>> Toward the anti-human. A left liberal believed THAT could have gone
>>> differently, and in incremental ways, still could.
>>>
>>> Conservatives, the Right, generally argue that the natural movement of
>>> History is the way of the (free) world, masking Power---that Pynchon bad
>>> shit--over the people.
>>>
>>> I agree that Pynchon transcends prosaic political ( as party, as policy)
>>> literalisms.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On May 23, 2015, at 6:44 AM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what a liberal is, or rather, what was meant when the
>>> statement was made, and how we might equate that with the terms Left, Old
>>> Left, New Left, but it seems obvious to me, anyway, that young Pynchon, the
>>> subject of his SL Introduction, was no kind of Lefty, and that after V., as
>>> the author notes on pages 22 and 23, as the author matures and shifts more
>>> toward Beat and specifically White Negro to California phase, with the
>>> publication of  "The Secret Integration" and the Watts Essay, Liberal, as
>>> in Post-JFK/James Bond phase and toward LBJ Great Society phase may be an
>>> appropriate description of the author, though with obvious latent issues of
>>> Archie Bunkerisms, but not Lefty.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... the point having yet to have been  made.  I personally don't read
>>>> V. as leaning much either way, but the Watts essay + Lot 49 I believe
>>>> def. lean left(y), albeit not uncomplicatedly/uncritically so.  @ any
>>>> rate, Pynchon doesn't lend himself easily to any political position.
>>>> However ...
>>>>
>>>> "We'd sit and talk for hours," she said. "We'd argue all the time. He
>>>> was a liberal and I was a conservative. Of course, he was always
>>>> smarter than I was."
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theaesthetic.com/NewFiles/pynchon.html
>>>>
>>>> + thanks to Doug Millison for preserving the "on the other hand" quote
>>>> I was looking for (+, as I recall, I 1st posted here, to no reaction
>>>> [no puns where none intended, to paraphrase S. Beckett] otherwise
>>>> whatsoever [?!]) ...
>>>>
>>>> "Referring to conservative Cornellians (Wolfowitz is a 1965 Cornell
>>>> graduate in mathematics), Corn showed his familiarity with university
>>>> alumni when he said: 'I was accepted at Cornell and nearly attended.
>>>> Thank you for giving us both Thomas Pynchon and Ann Coulter.'"
>>>>
>>>> http://pynchonoid.blogspot.com/2004/09/pynchon-coulter.html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/04/9.23.04/Corn-Lowry_debate.html
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, here's an unexpected namedrop I found while poking around ...
>>>>
>>>> "Among the graduates of the Ivy League Cornell are Ruth Bader
>>>> Ginsburg, Thomas Pynchon, Paul Wolfowitz, E.B. White, Sanford I.
>>>> Weill, Floyd Abrams, Kurt Vonnegut, Douglas Ginsburg, Janet Reno,
>>>> Henry Heimlich and Harold Bloom."
>>>>
>>>> http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2009-03-04.html
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 4:14 AM, Jerome Park <jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Did someone say a collection of Pynchon's essays and letters, in
>>>> > chronological order had been collected and published?
>>>> >
>>>> > In 66, that is, three years after V., Pynchon groping through white
>>>> negro
>>>> > phase. Lot49, Watts.
>>>> >
>>>> > In the SL Introduction (1984) and Luddite (1984), we see a shift
>>>> emerging as
>>>> > Pynchon says, "It may yet turn out that racial differences are not as
>>>> basic
>>>> > as questions of money and power (page 11 top), and in that same Intro
>>>> he
>>>> > reads his own stories noting and taking interest in class struggle,
>>>> but he's
>>>> > not there yet.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm not gonna dig into V. again to make the point.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 1:28 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I don't remember any evidence of this either. I'm not disputing you,
>>>> >> just never thought to ask the question.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Dave Monroe <
>>>> against.the.dave at gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> > "he was no Lefty when he wrote V., and this is easy enough to get
>>>> from
>>>> >> > the novel"
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > How so?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Jerome Park <
>>>> jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >> Pynchon ain't March, but that's another point; the point is, he
>>>> was no
>>>> >> >> Lefty
>>>> >> >> when he wrote V., and this is easy enough to get from the novel,
>>>> but P
>>>> >> >> published several essays about his formative years, including the
>>>> most
>>>> >> >> revealing Intro to the SL collection, but also BDSL Intro, and
>>>> others,
>>>> >> >> plus
>>>> >> >> the letters that have been made public, and these are proof that
>>>> P was
>>>> >> >> a
>>>> >> >> conservative white boy, catholic boy who was a-political, and
>>>> then,
>>>> >> >> like so
>>>> >> >> many of his generation, radicalized artistically and
>>>> philosophically,
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >> politically and this shift, a California shift, if you will, was
>>>> not
>>>> >> >> complete in GR, and even took on ironic, ambiguities (if you
>>>> must) in
>>>> >> >> VL,
>>>> >> >> then moved Left in his major works about workers in Amerika.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> My quick 'take'.
>>>> >> >>>  V shows Pynchon was never an (old) Lefty. From the beginning we
>>>> >> >>> have a world-historical vision of enslavement in history and
>>>> what we
>>>> >> >>> used to call back in the V. day: alienation.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Five decades later comes old Lefty, March.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 6:53 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>> >> >>> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> > JP, I'm interested in this: "It's difficult to argue that V.,
>>>> for
>>>> >> >>> > example, was written by a Lefty"
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > Can you elaborate? I've never thought about this and am
>>>> genuinely
>>>> >> >>> > intrigued.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > And FWIW I find Pynchon's later writing to be much more
>>>> ambiguous,
>>>> >> >>> > politically speaking. Let's talk Small vs Big Government,
>>>> anarchy,
>>>> >> >>> > collectivism, communitarian societies, individualism,
>>>> corporation
>>>> >> >>> > politics, taxes, etc. My views on all of these are not the
>>>> views I
>>>> >> >>> > had
>>>> >> >>> > when I first read (and loved) V. so, yeah, there's that.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Mark Kohut <
>>>> mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >>> > wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >> I take issue. Major shifts in his work, get sure. But lotsa
>>>> deep
>>>> >> >>> >> continuities, ESP re work, power in history and good shit on
>>>> life.
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> On May 17, 2015, at 9:53 AM, Jerome Park <
>>>> jeromepark3141 at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> Rules in Saint Jerome's theory of literary criticism,
>>>> outlined by
>>>> >> >>> >> Foucalt in
>>>> >> >>> >> his famous "What is an author?":
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> 1. if among several books attributed to an author one is
>>>> inferior
>>>> >> >>> >> to
>>>> >> >>> >> the
>>>> >> >>> >> others, it must be withdrawn from the author's works
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> 2. if one book contradicts the doctrine expounded in the
>>>> others it
>>>> >> >>> >> must
>>>> >> >>> >> be
>>>> >> >>> >> withdrawn
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> 3. if written in a different style, it must be withdrawn
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> Foucault argues that modern criticism still defines authors
>>>> in the
>>>> >> >>> >> same
>>>> >> >>> >> way.
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> Of course, lots of critics have noted major shifts in Pynchon
>>>> >> >>> >> "doctrine" and
>>>> >> >>> >> in quality and style.
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> It's difficult to argue that V., for example, was written by a
>>>> >> >>> >> Lefty,
>>>> >> >>> >> and
>>>> >> >>> >> surely not by the same Left shifting Pynchon who wrote the SL
>>>> >> >>> >> Introduction
>>>> >> >>> >> where he says that he finds a substrate of economic forces
>>>> that
>>>> >> >>> >> undermine,
>>>> >> >>> >> then, co-opt the qualities of the working class. In any event,
>>>> >> >>> >> there
>>>> >> >>> >> are
>>>> >> >>> >> clear and major shifts in Pynchon "doctrine", in how he sees
>>>> work,
>>>> >> >>> >> the
>>>> >> >>> >> workers, the forces that weaken the workers and their
>>>> champions.
>>>> >> >>> >> Rather
>>>> >> >>> >> than
>>>> >> >>> >> repeat the mantra that the red baiting government dismembered
>>>> >> >>> >> labor,
>>>> >> >>> >> Pynchon
>>>> >> >>> >> shows that forces more powerful than government, labor
>>>> itself, and
>>>> >> >>> >> the
>>>> >> >>> >> tragic ironies of human relations were largely responsible.
>>>> The
>>>> >> >>> >> rich
>>>> >> >>> >> and
>>>> >> >>> >> powerful Vibe is no match for the forces of Nature, ours and
>>>> Hers,
>>>> >> >>> >> but
>>>> >> >>> >> the
>>>> >> >>> >> battle has left the planet bleeding on the edge.
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>> >> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Heikki R
>>>> >> >>> >> <situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >>>
>>>> >> >>> >>> Already "Vineland"?
>>>> >> >>> >>>
>>>> >> >>> >>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 7:10 PM, rich <
>>>> richard.romeo at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >>>>
>>>> >> >>> >>>> I think that's generally true but in his recent offerings
>>>> the
>>>> >> >>> >>>> ambiguity
>>>> >> >>> >>>> pro-offered is less ambiguous
>>>> >> >>> >>>>
>>>> >> >>> >>>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Mark Kohut
>>>> >> >>> >>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> or, since one of his 'values' seems to be
>>>> anti-Either-Orness,
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> one
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> might reject the dichotomy in the choice as so presented
>>>> and
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> embrace
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> the poised ambiguities of meanings.
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> As a value.
>>>> >> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Monte Davis
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > "It becomes impossible to declare Pynchon's ultimate
>>>> 'values'
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > without
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > exposing yourself to the embarrassing admission that you
>>>> may
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > just
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > want
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > Pynchon to share your values, and thus settle for one or
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > another
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > of
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > his
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> > alternatives on that basis." (Mark Greif)
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>>>> http://www.publicbooks.org/nonfiction/the-trouble-with-modernity
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> -
>>>> >> >>> >>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> >> >>> >>>>
>>>> >> >>> >>>>
>>>> >> >>> >>>
>>>> >> >>> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> > -
>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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