Brilliantly, sadly observed

Fri Nov 27 06:35:59 CST 2015

There is, of course, a long list of US and Western policy (foreign and
internal)  blunders, atrocities, war crimes ...etc. But there is also much
to applaud. Do you agree?

WE are US:  We are the US and its, mostly Western,  allies. I too would
love to take the high road an call myself a man without a country, divorce
myself from the West, but that's a self-serving delusion and we know it.

Terrorism is a word that has lost its meaning. We need other words to have
a dialogue. Like the phrase, "that's racist", the phrase, "they are
terrorists" has lost its meaning, especially in on-line communications.

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 12:12 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> So what exactly does the word terrorism mean? Give me a definition.
>
>  Also what is a  “rant”.
>
> When you talk about what “we “ have been able to do since ww2, who are you
> talking  about. Do the politicians and CIA and Pentagon consult with you.
> At any rate I find the international record of the US government after ww2
> to be mostly horrible.
>
>
>
> > On Nov 26, 2015, at 8:31 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The diversity of approaches  can't be ignored, and labeling one, the
> bombing and droning by America, for example, as "terrorism", while an
> effective rhetorical strategy to counter the American propaganda that seeks
> to paste this label on its current targets, is counterproductive.
> >
> > War, not only destroys communities, wastes resources, and so on, it
> compounds the difficulties that are naturally and inherently present in
> communication across cultures, as fundamental differences about human
> communities become ideologically rigid by the exercise of power and the use
> of violence and intimidation (terror).
> >
> > That said, the end of violence, while a necessary step, one that will
> stop making matters worse, will also bring more complexity to the problem,
> and even more approaches to solving it. The peace process will admit more
> voices, more groups, more diversity.
> >
> > Human rights, justice, independence, self-determination, security,
> education, freedom....these are not going to flourish once the west ceases
> the bombing and droning. To achieve these, is, of course,  much more
> difficult than waging wars.
> >
> > Fortunately, we have some decent models. While never perfect, we can
> look to what we have been able to do, since WWII, and work for a lasting
> peace in this troubled region of the world. We will need Russia and China
> and others to get it done. And, while  I doubt it will happen, that's what
> it will take. To dismiss the West and the whites, and smear them all with
> trumpings makes for good headlines in a tabloid, rants.....nothing more....
> >
> > Aside from the ranting, there are advantages to the privileged who can
> articulate their grievances and capitalize on the plight of the poor and
> powerless, who are, of course, disproportionately, people of color in the
> US,  but we've seen this movie before. Pynchon wrote a novel about it.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 7:37 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > So send in ground troops? That won't work. More importantly, tt won't
> prevent the thing you most want to stop, the killing of citizens,
> non-combatants. War is not the answer. Peace is the answer. Can we make
> peace with all these parties and factions? No. So there is no way out of
> this. It will never end. We have to live with it best we can. Stop the
> bombing and droning, stop the funding and arms sales, stop tearing down
> governments, propping puppets. This won't wash the West of blood or absolve
> it from the bloody civil and regional wars that will continue, worsen
> perhaps, but art least the west can get on with the business of money.
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > I never said Al Qaeda or BinLaden were responding in kind. I said Isis
> was. But I think it is you who fails to understand moral equivalence. You
> seem to think that The US can murder hundreds of thousands in a nation that
> neither attacked nor threatened them  and expect to be safe themselves.
> What about the wealthy 'freedom fighters' of recent US history and their
> idiotic reasons for starting wars. What about the mass killing in Gaza?
> What about our support for Mubarak, the Shah, the Saudis. What about the
> estimated million children who starved due to our blockade of Iraq. What
> about our torture? Why isn’t the same kind of outrage over Paris directed
> at the US killing of Doctors and patients in the MSF hospital? Isn’t it
> that we don’t want to look at our own crimes and stupidity and violence, or
> to question the nasty behavior of the US military?
> >
> >  Fuck america’s ignorant and murderous self-righteousness.  And the same
> for the French leader who started bombing in Libya and the ISIS
> territories. He risked his civilian citizens when he rained bombs on cities
> which have more non-combatant civilians than Isis fighters. What he did was
> just as bad as what they did.
> >   The only way to fight a group like this without collective punishment
> is on the ground, following the Geneva accord to avoid civilian casualties,
> and followed by the kind of economic aid given to Japan and Germany. That
> is very costly, but the bombing is pure terrorism and  begets more of the
> same. Both Bush and Obama had the stated strategy , on which billions was
> spent, of training the Iraqi army to handle internal threats. Before that
> it was massive bombing and a large ground war. None of these strategies has
> brought the stated goals. Neither will this new bombing campaign.
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:14 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > " They" claimed?---not any I believed ...and ISIS out of Al---Qaeda
> would NOT have happened if we had not bombed? ( not that I believe we
> should have bombed Iraq, but I say nothing would have stopped ISIS from
> happening. And the most major difficulty is stopping/destroying a
> transnational group such as Al--Qaeda formed by a wealthy 'freedom fighter'
> who fought the Russians whose ideology held Westernism---your life and
> mine---as an evil in itself....and who " responded in kind" to our having
> military bases in Saudi Arabia, an ally, by knocking down the World Trade
> Center and killing 3000. “
> >
> >  He claimed also to be responding to Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.
> Many westerners, avid for war, describe Islam in the same way,”an evil in
> itself". All militaristic cultures fill themselves with the same lies in
> order to control land, gain power and enrich themselves at others expense.
> > > IN kind" shows you don't get " moral equivalence" in any way.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > >> On Nov 25, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I think you are dreaming when it comes to Obama and global warming.
> Under enormous political pressure he finally canned the tar sands pipeline,
> but has dramatically increased fracking and continued gulf oil operations
> despite the spill and also opened the arctic. He talks one way and acts
> another in virtually every issue.
> > >>
> > >> The problem with bombing is it is wildly indiscriminate and kills
> many civilians.  US bombs in Syria have killed many more civilians than
> were killed in all Isis attacks on  westerners. We are also bombing and
> doing drone missile strikes in Yemen, Afghanistan, Africa etc.
> > >> If you want to make war you need to do all that is possible to avoid
> civilian deaths or you are just terrorists with uniforms and jets.
> Collective punishment is evil.
> > >>
> > >> The sad truth is that the US is still the major planetary terrorist
> of the last 2 decades and ISIS is simply responding  in kind. You seem to
> approve of the very tactics that led to these attacks.
> > >>
> > >> The Syrian rebels you speak of have absorbed into ISIS or decimated
> to virtual non-existence.
> > >>
> > >> You want to imagine that this utterly horrible policy of solving all
> conflicts with bombs will magically work this time? They claimed it had
> worked in Iraq right up until ISIS proved them to be liars and idiots.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> that does not destabilize us.
> > >>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 7:29 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>> paris, beirut and the Russian plane show they are a global threat,
> > >>> imho. I do not know what else
> > >>> to do but soldiers on the ground means more deaths and no resolution
> > >>>
> > >>> Obama has clearly spoken against Us Military dominance. I do not know
> > >>> how self-governance will take hold,
> > >>> unless the Syrian rebels take down Assad and make it happen.
> > >>>
> > >>> The move off oil--and to other sources of energy---has been happening
> > >>> and accelerated by Obama.
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Is ISIS an existential global threat, in your mind. And what is to
> be
> > >>>>> done if it is?
> > >>>> ISIS has clearly reached its limits as a regional force and
> millions are fleeing the area. They are refugees from ISIS, from drought,
> from bombs,  from the Syrian army and from the Iraqi army. So the fact that
> ISIS is ruling by terror and ideological solidarity over such an
> inhospitable and deadly region is hardly an existential threat.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What is to be done? Not bombs, not drones, not coalitions with the
> dictatorial monarchy that bred Isis and Al Qaeda. Not regime change with a
> new set of Generals and dickhead dictators. These have been tried again and
> again.  Our policies in  Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq have failed
> miserably, and yet more of that is what is proposed by Obama and the
> Republicans. Part of the problem here is that some things can’t be fixed
> any more than people can be brought back from the dead.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If the nations of the earth truly want to disarm ISIS and bring
> justice to the region it would require ground troops with a high commitment
> to the Geneva conventions and a willingness to address the original
> injustices to regional Sunni Arabs.  Clearly the civil war between Shia and
> Sunni  Iraqis did not resolve the problems in Iraq  following the massive
> destruction of the war. Despite plenty of weapons, training and money the
> government of Iraq could not stop the seizure of control by the ISIS
> fighters.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> US policy needs to change dramatically away from global military
> dominance toward creating a working model of a just middle class peaceable
> multi-ethnic, tolerant  republic/democracy/ parliamentary
> socialism/whatever we choose in a reasonably non-corrupt self governing
> process. We need to lead toward renewable energy and local full spectrum
> green economies. Either we move toward something like that or we continue
> on the path to globally destructive wars for dominance, resource
> extraction, and an ecological death spiral.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> > >>>>>> Calling people knuckle draggers may have some accuracy and offer
> some comic release, but are our problems really coming from the
> semi-literate? Is  the US Military and our campaigns of mass obliteration
> and drone warfare in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Isis controlled
> regions the product of semi-literacy or even the Republicans? The votes and
> financing came from both parties, many lawyers, many newspeople. My feeling
> is that Trump is just like Netanyahu, a shrewd public power broker who
> knows fear and war are the ultimate political drug, and voices openly the
> xenopobic hate mongering that produced the blowback.
> > >>>>>> Many educated people are as addicted to denial and military
> violence and the racism of neglect as the more obviously ignorant followers
> of Trump and Cruz.. The Paris attacks have produced an ugly willingness to
> keep bombing regardless of how man regional civilians die, and that
> willingness goes across the political spectrum.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:09 PM, David Kilroy <
> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "It's clear now that the Paris attacks enormously energized the
> Trumpist movement. He's now speculating openly about invading Syria.
> Trump's proposals have gone from overt prejudice to things literally taken
> out of late Weimar history — closure of mosques and a national Muslim
> database. The rank-and-file have both fed off and stoked this behavior.
> When a lone protester started chanting "black lives matter" at a Trump
> rally, Trumpists jumped him (he was luckily not badly injured). Trump later
> said, "Maybe he should have been roughed up." Hours later he lied about
> witnessing Muslim crowds celebrating 9/11, and retweeted nonsense racist
> garbage from a literal neo-Nazi."
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> http://theweek.com/articles/590497/donald-trumps-alarming-skid-toward-outright-fascism
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> After decades of being allowed to stockpile arms with
> increasingly little federal interference, a general escalation in the
> violent rhetoric of the right, and shrill sponsorship from the NRA,
> semiliterate knuckle-draggers are only too eager to start a race /
> "religious" war in the U.S., and the candidates, allowed to start their
> noisome campaigns two years in advance of an actual election, are only
> egging them on.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I live in a state where black churches were burned, in a city
> with clear color lines.  I'm not afraid of black people.  I'm afraid of
> shitheads teething for glory.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:37 PM, David Kilroy <
> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Apologies for harping on this point.  Know that I do.  But it
> frankly terrifies me.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:17 PM, David Kilroy <
> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> (shades of Lot 49, too: recall the swastika armbands)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:16 PM, David Kilroy <
> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> The tech sector's too "What, me worry?" about the problem.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Anonymity in comments threads, Craigslist, 4chan, Reddit et al
> permit open promulgation of hate speech.  Most sites, when confronted about
> the problem, cite free speech as a concern when the fact is they don't want
> to face the added hassle of verifying accounts and making people
> responsible for their words.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> There's a massive network of these shitheads armed for a race
> riot and no-one seems to want to stop them.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Steven Koteff <
> steviekoteff at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for this, Mark. Reading it now, and I agree with
> you. Very smart and sadder for it.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Mark Kohut <
> mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Charlie Pierce on the Powder Keg that is the United States of
> America
> > >>>>>>> right now
> http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39987/america-race-powderkeg/
> > >>>>>>> …
> > >>>>>>> -
> > >>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> -
> > >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> > >>>>> -
> > >>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -
> > >>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> > >>
> > >> -
> > >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> > > -
> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
> >
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >
> >
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20151127/88b4370a/attachment.html>