BtZ42 ye olde unbelievable story

Mon Apr 11 14:47:59 CDT 2016

Isn't there one point that all interpreters of Slothrup's stars agree on?
Don't they all predict V-2 strikes?  If so, somehow Slothrup has an
extraordinary ability, no matter what its mechanism.

David Morris

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Much of this discussion seems to hinge on a particular question
> regarding Slothrop’s affairs and  whether they happened or whether they are
> accurately connected to V2 rocket strikes.
>
> As I raised that w/r/t the Duifhuizen article, let me say I consider that
> ("are they accurately connected?") quite separate from the "unreliable
> narrator" discussion. First McHale, then D in much more detail, point out
> that
>
> (1) Most readers, reviewers and critics for years did take (and many today
> still do take) the connection as "real" -- because we see Bloat
> photographing the map, because we're told via long Pointsman & Mexico
> exchanges coming up soon that its stars match V-2 strikes when maps are
> overlaid, and because much of the plot for the next 500 pages is built
> around Them pull Slothrop's strings because They are very concerned with
> what Slothrop's gift might mean for the future of science, rocket warfare,
> etc... so much that They'd castrate him rather than let this "wild power"
> proliferate.
>
> (2) But there are a number of signs all along that the map is not the
> pure, hard "data" they take it to be. Therefore, the next 500 pages are, at
> least in part, a story of Them projecting Their paranoid fantasies as much
> as any of the individual bozos on this bus. And to the extent we
> swallow(ed) the connection, maybe some over-all views of Slothrop as the
> poor victim of Cold Hard Deterministic Science might need correcting...
> towards, say, Slothrop Puts Up Stars to Impress Tantivy, Unwittingly
> Causing Slapstick Chinese Fire Drill in the Halls of Power. Just sayin.
>
> This is tricky storytelling, but *not* "unreliable narration" in any sense
> that Booth or most narratologists would accept. The book's narrator never
> independently validates the beliefs of Pointsman, Mexico, the rest of the
> White Visitation crew, or their rarely seen superiors. The narrator shows
> them convincing themselves and persuading others, listens in on their
> worries about What It Means -- but never says they're correct about "It" in
> the first place.
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
>> Perfect and elegant choice of a sonnet.
>> I also benefit from Ish's attention to film, about which I have more
>> limited and sporadic knowledge.
>> I would add to your description of the possibilities allowed by P’s
>> narrative choices not only parody and irony but truth told slant and
>> straight, descriptive, detailed. metaphoric and historic.
>>
>> What I am personally uncomfortable with in terms of reliability of the
>> narrator is a novel where we can’t know that events described in this
>> fictional world are reliable within the framework of the book. At that
>> point all discussion becomes pointless; there is no grounds for settling
>> misunderstanding because there is no grounds for understanding or knowing
>> what is being said.. If Pointsman or Mexico just imagined his foot getting
>> caught in the toilet, or if the narrator just wanted to lie about that
>> event, then the reader is left with no way of connecting to the artistic
>> intent or even the events of the story.. My feeling is that P works hard to
>> construct a story that checks out and holds up as a carefully narrated plot
>> within its own framework, but that he is skilled at showing the
>> limitations/unreliability of any narrator/s along with the confusion
>> produced by many points of view from the characters.. A tough act.
>>
>> Much of this discussion seems to hinge on a particular question regarding
>> Slothrop’s affairs and  whether they happened or whether they are
>> accurately connected to V2 rocket strikes. I want to say that for me the
>> narrative is clear enough and precise enough to indicate that in GR,
>> Slothrop had many encounters with English women, some , if not all, leading
>> to sexual relations, but all important enough to be memorable and inspire
>> stars on his map. The second question is more difficult but it seems to me
>> that P has constructed a plot where both psychic and chemical phenomena are
>> given tremendous significance that specifically make the connection of
>> Slothrop’s hard-ons to Rocket strikes plausible and important within the
>> world of the book. Why Pynchon seems to go to such painstaking elaboration
>> to make this crazy idea stick has potent cultural and historical
>> justification. I personally will be leaning toward an interpretation that
>> says the stars are tokens of women who induced sexual fantasies or affairs
>> in Slothrop and that these fantasies/affairs predicted rocket strikes. I
>> don’t have to believe that Pynchon finds such a connection plausible to
>> believe he would use it as a core plot device.  The reason that P has
>> shaped such a story is much more challenging and of greater interest to me.
>>
>> What I am trying for in my own limitations as a reader is not a
>> comprehensive reading but a coherent reading that will hold up to textual
>> scrutiny, and make sense of and even in its’ best moments offer satisfying
>> insights into a great work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ,
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 11, 2016, at 11:02 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > There are endless possibilities for reliability and for un-reliability
>> and for combinations of the endless variations of these two possibilities.
>> Distance too offers endless possibilities.
>> >
>> > I've been reading short stories. Not the kind I've ever read about on
>> this list. The kind, I think, folks here might find dreadful. These stories
>> are said to fit into the renaissance in American short story making. They
>> are realistic for the most part. And they are written by and heavily
>> influenced by academics. What's striking about them is how they use
>> narrators.
>> >
>> > For example, in one story the narrator tells a bunch of stories,
>> sometimes with photographs to aid her, to audiences who are amazed with her
>> story telling skills, and especially her fancy, that is, with her ability
>> to make, from her imagination, fantastic stories. But the stories are true.
>> They are, essentially, parts of an autobiography. When she tells her
>> stories to her lover, when she, essentially  confesses to her lover, her
>> lover never believes her. It is in this problem that reliability is
>> established. We believe her because others don't. A clever turn. Reminded
>> me of Shakespeare's sonnet about lovers that lie.
>> >
>> > When my love swears that she is made of truth,
>> > I do believe her, though I know she lies,
>> > That she might think me some untutored youth,
>> > Unlearnèd in the world’s false subtleties.
>> > Thus vainly thinking that she thinks me young,
>> > Although she knows my days are past the best,
>> > Simply I credit her false-speaking tongue:
>> > On both sides thus is simple truth suppressed.
>> > But wherefore says she not she is unjust?
>> > And wherefore say not I that I am old?
>> > Oh, love’s best habit is in seeming trust,
>> > And age in love loves not to have years told.
>> >     Therefore I lie with her and she with me,
>> >     And in our by lies we flattered be.
>> >
>> >
>> > There are, as Booth, in The Rhetoric of Fiction, where the terms
>> reliable and unreliable are coined,  endless possibilities.
>> >
>> > GR opens in a dream. The dreamer manages other people fantasies.
>> Fantasies are manufactured with films and reels spin into reals.
>> >
>> > In film, sometimes, there is silence. Sometimes in silent films there
>> is screaming we can see but not hear and sometimes the music of the film
>> makes a scream and a paprodic commentary on the plot.
>> >
>> > One thing is for sure, Pynchon's narrative choices are important, if
>> only because they permit greater opportunities for irony and parody.
>> >
>> > In GR, the history of film making is very important.
>> >
>> > Is the narrator of Pirate's dream, Pirate's dreaming mind,  or someone
>> else's, or is it a movie voice over? Or have the reels meshed with the
>> reals and dreams and fantasies of actors in a world that, as Shakespeare
>> might have said, is all staged....all theater/theatre?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>
>
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