Bi-cameral brains in depth

Tue Feb 2 02:40:49 CST 2016

Not sure where you're getting your fluff there, Bove. I never said anything
about anything Al Huang said or did. Your attempt to dismiss the current
hard science on how the central nervous system works by looking for holes
in a few casual statements sounds a bit like a drunken spiel. Why houses?
Because I felt like saying houses, that's why. Now pick up a few good
current texts on neuroscience and do some reading before you get too far
into your next fifth.

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 8:27 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Bove,
>
> By illogical, I would cite your obvious arrogance, opposing so much that
> you have never even tried to experience. This realm of reality is known
> best by personal experience. "My back doesn't hurt" is just the first layer
> of that kind of experience, as wonderful as is that kind of healing.  But
> the first step in the path of experiencing that reality is humility, which
> you lack in spades.  Your choice.
>
> David Morris
>
>
> On Monday, February 1, 2016, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: *David Morris* <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> Date: Monday, February 1, 2016
>> Subject: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>> To: john bove <malignd at gmx.com>
>>
>>
>> Your faith in Science above all other knowledge is illogical.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 10:47 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bove,
>>>
>>> You somehow think your measure of reality is superior because it is
>>> somehow "objective?"  But your objectivity discounts multitudes of eons of
>>> subjective observation.  Call it what you will, but it is deep in the
>>> genes. Your standard is modern, but not inherently superior.  It has its
>>> benefits, but its horrors are also rife.  A real scientist would look at
>>> the eons of other esoteric sciences and be less hostile. They don't
>>> threaten you.  They don't care about you.  Truth will prevail.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 5:39 PM, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not picking a fight. I'm in fact doing the opposite, trying to take
>>>> this seriously.  But  Chunlian Al Huang said or did this, and Spinoza
>>>> thought that in the 15th century and even Nietsche gave it a green light
>>>> ... The two houses of the brain ... (Why "houses"?), natural wisdom, a
>>>> helix curved ...  By any standard this is laughable non-science, and so you
>>>> have to fall back on the argument that science misses important keys of
>>>> knowledge or undiscovered pathways or the wisdom of the ancients or
>>>> whatever.  If you can't do better than that or, instead, offer up anecdotal
>>>> evidence ("my backache's gone!"), it's on the level of astrology.
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 01, 2016 at 2:20 PM
>>>> *From:* "Ian Livingston" <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>>> *To:* "ish mailian" <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* "pynchon -l" <Pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>>> Keith, my teacher's teacher was Chunliang Al Huang. It is a less
>>>> martial, more simply chi-oriented style that resembles dance more than
>>>> combat-training--but, then, tai chi chuan resembles dance in individual
>>>> practice anyhow, doesn't it?
>>>>
>>>> Joseph, there is indeed support for the linear / holistic activities
>>>> for recognizing a division of labor between the two houses of the brain.
>>>> Language is associated with the left brain, so pretty much all we express
>>>> in linguistic terms (remembering that mathematics is a language, as may
>>>> movement be) is dominated by left-brain activity. That, of course, implies
>>>> that even the most finely-honed linguistic approaches to expression also
>>>> engage the broader, synthetic functions of the creative, visionary areas of
>>>> the right brain. I look forward to reading The M & Em.
>>>>
>>>> And pain, yes. Some of the neurons associated with pain messages extend
>>>> the entire distance from the mid-brain to the tip of the big toe. That can
>>>> be a 7' long neuron. Don't know where I'm going with that, but, hey--it's
>>>> just one of those remarkable factoids contained within the fact of the
>>>> non-duality of the body and mental activity. It still fascinates me that
>>>> Spinoza postulated that argument so effectively in the 15th c. That's quite
>>>> a stretch for a lens grinder! For all his eagerness to dismiss Spinoza for
>>>> his methods, even Nietzsche embraced the rightness of his thought.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:47 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In this brief and simple piece some of the ideas discussed here
>>>>> recently are addressed. One of the ideas is the Natural wisdom we
>>>>> have, of our bodies, bodies that are not separate from our heads or
>>>>> minds, not divided. .  We got here without much of modern medicine's
>>>>> miracles. The miracle of conception, of two sharing the energies of
>>>>> life, the double, is a black hole, is a helix curved.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does Lamaze “Work”?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3431777/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.timeshighereducation.com/content/book-review-black-hole-by-marcia-bartusiak
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/12/lifes-greatest-secret-story-race-genetic-code-matthew-cobb-review
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Just caught your reply tonight. Thanks for the feedback. Your
>>>>> experience with accupuncture, where the healing takes place overnight, is
>>>>> typical of several people I have talked with and my own experience. Makes
>>>>> me think pain works in the brain in a self-reinforcing cycle. I find that
>>>>> sending consciousness and , in my imagination, breath/chi to an aggravated
>>>>> or painful area while doing qigong exercises has reliably good results.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > As far as the hemisphere differences, McGilchrist often repeats what
>>>>> your studies are saying that complex processes engage  more than one
>>>>> hemisphere. But it does seem irrefutable that when there is for instance a
>>>>> stroke that severely impairs one hemisphere or the other the disabilities
>>>>> are dramatically different for each and fall into distinct patterns of
>>>>> effect that point both to the kinds of things that each hemispere is likely
>>>>> to handle and to the way each side processes personal experiences and
>>>>> mental tasks.  Of course what is hard to tell by that means would be
>>>>> something that initiates in one hemispere and is sent to the other  for the
>>>>> bulk of processing. But his extensive citations show he is not alone in his
>>>>> leanings about some general and specific  differences between the
>>>>> hemisperes. McGilchrists mastery of the current reasearch is not of a
>>>>> pop-science quality, but the expression of a life devoted to brain research
>>>>> and its interpretation in a larger context.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 4:00 AM, Ian Livingston <
>>>>> igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> A single accupuncture treatment cured my sciatica a decade ago
>>>>> after I had thrown useless hundreds away on massage therapy and
>>>>> chiropractic treatment. The next step was to be weeks of bed rest I could
>>>>> not afford combined with pain meds. Would've cost thousands in lost work
>>>>> and expenses. On a whim, because I figured I had nothing to lose, I stopped
>>>>> at an accupuncture school in Santa Cruz, Ca, where I lived at the time, and
>>>>> got a low-cost treatment from an advanced student. That night the pain was
>>>>> incredible, but I eventually fell asleep and woke in the morning pain-free,
>>>>> with full range of motion. True story. I took up tai chi chuan as a
>>>>> maintenance plan, and have had no flare-ups of the pain I experienced while
>>>>> trying to climb trees (I was a full-time arborist then) and carry heavy
>>>>> logs and limbs, and generally bend, lift and twist 8 hours a day.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I do not understand all the energy theories. I've been at the
>>>>> fringes of all that stuff for decades, on and off, of course, but I've
>>>>> mostly worked in heavy labor and played in book-learning. It was shortly
>>>>> after the incident with the sciatica that I took up a serious Zen
>>>>> meditation practice, which did wonders for helping me to stop smoking and
>>>>> quit caffeine without anxiety or cravings. I went on to study Chinese
>>>>> alchemy as a result of reading Jung on the subject, and found myself in
>>>>> agreement with him that alchemy is indeed a psychological pursuit of
>>>>> integrity on a relatively subtle level. There's a terrific little intro
>>>>> book used in Traditional Chinese Medicine schools here in CA, The Web That
>>>>> Has No Weaver. Worth a look.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> In direct response to your query, Joseph, my profs were cautious
>>>>> about the left-brain / right-brain differentiation primarily because recent
>>>>> work with fMRI studies shows that, when complex problems are presented, the
>>>>> whole brain lights up, with higher activity levels in some areas than in
>>>>> others. Also, the role of the corpus collosum appears to be that of making
>>>>> sure that action potentials carry effectively between the two cerebral
>>>>> lobes. Furthermore, it would be false to say that the entire brain is
>>>>> divided by the corpus collosum. Only the cerebral cortex is thus divided
>>>>> and united, as it were. The why of that is the study of a great many
>>>>> lifetimes. Maybe humans will someday know. One of the darkest areas of
>>>>> brain research is still to do with neurotransmitters. Research reveals how
>>>>> they work in synapses, but how many operate within the brain is still
>>>>> anybody's guess, and the functions of only a very few are known. Folks are
>>>>> discovering new ones all the time.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I'll leave off with a wonderful quote from one of my neuropsych
>>>>> texts: "The number of possible synaptic connections in a normal human brain
>>>>> exceeds the number molecules in the known universe." I suspect it'll be a
>>>>> while before we fully understand an organ with that level of potential
>>>>> complexity.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The Chinese have been working with energy flow  for thousands of
>>>>> years and have developed a medical system based on it that is very
>>>>> effective. The west too is beginning to study the flow of low level
>>>>> electric charge in the body.   Many would have mocked  mindfulness
>>>>> meditation as having any value a decade ago. Now, based on clinical trials,
>>>>> it is being incorporated into western medical practice. Tibetan herbs are
>>>>> being used in medical operations in Israel to minimize drug side effects
>>>>> and improve the speed and comfort of healing.  Such herbs are being studied
>>>>> in Switzerland and Germany for the treatment of high cholesterol.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> At 64 i have personally only found increased flexibility, better
>>>>> posture,  improved non drug -dependent energy levels, and other sometimes
>>>>> dramatically  positive effects from yoga, acupuncture, tai chi and qigong.
>>>>> I teach a small class on qi-gong and tai chi and others report similar
>>>>> positive results.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I understand  and practice skepticism. I see from a friends post
>>>>> that the Dalai Lama is going in for prostate surgery. No Kundalini bolt up
>>>>> the spine for me so far.  I don’t so much believe in energy meridians as
>>>>> hold them in my mind as a map, and pay attention to my actual experience
>>>>> with qigong practices. Accupuncture can be simply amazing for things that
>>>>> doctors can’t seem to treat. Myself and several very rational friends have
>>>>> seen severe chronic pain from an injury disappear overnight through
>>>>> accupuncture.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > On Jan 26, 2016, at 4:38 PM, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > And you too?  The Kundalini awakening???  Good luck.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 at 4:33 PM
>>>>> >> > From: "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>> >> > To: "P-list List" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>>>> >> > Very interesting response in that I am myself very engaged
>>>>> currently with trying to learn to meditate with particular interest in the
>>>>> Kundalini awakening. For years I have done yoga and for the last 3 years
>>>>> have shifted my interest to qigong and tai chi. But for a couple months now
>>>>> I have been trying to meditate and doing some breath practices. If you have
>>>>> any personal thoughts or advice or suggestions for reading or online info,
>>>>> I would be interested. With qigong I am experiencing very discernible
>>>>> warmth and tingling in my arms and hands and have been able to profoundly
>>>>> and at least for 2 months now, completely relieve some muscle knots in my
>>>>> left shoulder and neck - knots that had been with me for probably cloose to
>>>>> a decade.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > In general it seems that asian philosophies and practices have
>>>>> much greater emphasis on balance. The idea/knowledge base that the central
>>>>> channel has no power of its own is something I had missed but really fits
>>>>> with role of emptiness in Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism. Anyway thanks,
>>>>> David. This one went right past the conversation at hand to hit dead center
>>>>> of my own interests and pursuits.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 4:00 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > In Eastern meditation/spiritual schools there is a concept of
>>>>> Kundalini energy that is the life-source of all animated flesh. This model
>>>>> is part of the ages-old Chakra system that illustrates the pathways of
>>>>> something called the "subtle body." In that model chakras are nodes of
>>>>> energy passage, crossings along the vertical main highways of the three
>>>>> main energy channels: the Right side (Bingala Nadi), the Left side (Ida
>>>>> Nali), and the Central channel (Sushumna Nadi). In some ways it might be
>>>>> said that the goal of meditation when it come to the workings of the Chakra
>>>>> system, is to achieve a balanced blending of the right and left energy
>>>>> channels into the central channel, achieving a synthesis greater then the
>>>>> sum of the two sides, because the central channel has no power of its own,
>>>>> only that supplied from the two sides. But when the two sides unify into
>>>>> the center, that is when transcendence happens.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > I expect the bicameral structure of the brain might be also
>>>>> mapped to this ancient system.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > http://www.freemeditationnz.com/our-three-energy-channels.html
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > David Morris
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > On Monday, January 25, 2016, Ian Livingston <
>>>>> igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> > > My neuropsych profs were eager to caution that we have now
>>>>> reached such a deep understanding of the brain and its functions that we
>>>>> can at last say with confidence that we know almost nothing about it.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >> > > Yes I read those reviews. What I am finding so far is that the
>>>>> book is very careful to build its picture of how the hemispheres work from
>>>>> data. Every step of the way, he draws on research and is very careful so
>>>>> far not to overreach and to include differing takes on that data. One of
>>>>> the things he points out is that brain science is with current technology
>>>>> and perhaps will always be a matter of intelligent interpretation since it
>>>>> deals with qualities and actions for which quantification makes little
>>>>> sense, like empathy, unjustified self confidence, manual grasping behaviors
>>>>> etc. Also it is almost impossible to really track the mechanisms involved(
>>>>> if they really are of a mechanistic nature) because they take place in a
>>>>> living organism. So brain scans give correspondences between activities and
>>>>> brain metabolism but not clearly detailed causal relationships. Also many
>>>>> mental processes draw on both sides of the brain which he frequently
>>>>> reminds the reader.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > Stlll, I think any reader will be surprised and amazed at the
>>>>> wealth and specificity of the data and how much can be meaningfully and
>>>>> confidently understood about the hemispheric differences. I know I am.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > It is true that he is trying to say something philosophically
>>>>> profound and that is always dangerous terrain, though I have not gotten to
>>>>> the heart of that part of the text. The question is whether there is enough
>>>>> data to support it. So far the data base is so rich that the book cannot
>>>>> fail to leave a powerful imprint and sense of enriched understanding for me.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Paul Mackin <
>>>>> mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > > One of a number of favorable reviews, this one glowing.
>>>>> However a couple of reviewers according to Wikipedia cautioned against
>>>>> culture and psychology conclusions getting too far ahead of hard brain
>>>>> science.
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > > http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/jan/02/1
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 6:39 AM, Mark Kohut <
>>>>> mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> > > > "You're gonna want your cause and effect, eh?"
>>>>> >> > > > Since his first book is entitled Against Criticism, I hope he
>>>>> isn't IN GR--
>>>>> >> > > > but I'll mic drop in advance. ......
>>>>> >> > > > Just a little metajoke there, heh, heh.
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > > On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Joseph Tracy <
>>>>> brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>> >> > > > I am currently reading Iain McGilchrist’s The Master and his
>>>>> Emissary
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > > One of the most scientifically, psychologically and
>>>>> philosophically profound books I have ever read. It really has me reeling
>>>>> with information and insight and makes sense of so much that seems
>>>>> inscrutable in human history and personal behavior. I came across the title
>>>>> and a description with a brief quote while doing research on another book.
>>>>> It seemed the more intriguing book so I got it from the library. Will be
>>>>> looking for a used copy.
>>>>> >> > > > The topic is the roles of the 2 hemispheres of the brain and
>>>>> he brings together an unexpected wealth of medical/scientific research,
>>>>> both contemprary and historic to build a very powerful picture of the
>>>>> nature of each hemisphere, as well as the evolutionary logic of their
>>>>> differentiation. Both from the introduction and from some peeks ahead I
>>>>> know he has a philosophic intention that argues for a greater balance in
>>>>> our cultural biases, and greater awareness of the brain-structure origins
>>>>> of those biases.
>>>>> >> > > > From a Pynchon reader POV McGilchrist takes on the brain
>>>>> structure basis of major themes and historic tendencies that appear
>>>>> throughout the body of P’s work. Essentially it is about the division in
>>>>> the brain between left hemisphere’s tendency to seek and produce control
>>>>> achieved through manipulable units of thought, communication, structure,
>>>>> manufacture and the right brain’s holistic, individualistic and socially
>>>>> empathic style. ( there is no way to adequadetly summarize this or the
>>>>> pages of precise information derived from scientific research). This
>>>>> struggle appers in all P books and with profound starkness in Pynchon’s
>>>>> essay on CP Snow, and the GR theme of mechanistic control vs nature/pursuit
>>>>> of bliss/personal freedom, humane solidarity.
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > > The writer’s background for this book is about as good as
>>>>> possible. Professional Psychiatrist specializing in physiological brain
>>>>> issues, a researcher in neuro-imaging and an Oxford English teacher 3 times
>>>>> elected Fellow at All Souls College. Of equal or greater importance is the
>>>>> originality of his brilliance and the humane depth of his quest to
>>>>> understand how our brain structure fits into our historic development, and
>>>>> his sense that understanding these things might free us to find a better
>>>>> way forward.
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > > Has anyone else read it?
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > > 462 pgs of text and over 100 of end notes etc.-
>>>>> >> > > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > -
>>>>> >> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > -
>>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>> >> > - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -
>>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -
>>>>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>
>>>> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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