Bi-cameral brains in depth

Tue Feb 2 17:43:58 CST 2016

Q: Why is Bove still allowed to participate here? His first message to
this group was essentially a single-sentence hate-utterance, and he
OBJECTIVELY wallows in his ignorance as though parading in his glory.

He's a classic troll. Time to fumigate the bridge.

Sincerely,
Jerky LeBoeuf, esq.

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Check out this video: http://youtu.be/s1ZoEE9Kgu0
>
> Www.innergroovemusic.com
>
> On Feb 2, 2016, at 3:40 AM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Not sure where you're getting your fluff there, Bove. I never said anything
> about anything Al Huang said or did. Your attempt to dismiss the current
> hard science on how the central nervous system works by looking for holes in
> a few casual statements sounds a bit like a drunken spiel. Why houses?
> Because I felt like saying houses, that's why. Now pick up a few good
> current texts on neuroscience and do some reading before you get too far
> into your next fifth.
>
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 8:27 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bove,
>>
>> By illogical, I would cite your obvious arrogance, opposing so much that
>> you have never even tried to experience. This realm of reality is known best
>> by personal experience. "My back doesn't hurt" is just the first layer of
>> that kind of experience, as wonderful as is that kind of healing.  But the
>> first step in the path of experiencing that reality is humility, which you
>> lack in spades.  Your choice.
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>>
>> On Monday, February 1, 2016, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Monday, February 1, 2016
>>> Subject: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>> To: john bove <malignd at gmx.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your faith in Science above all other knowledge is illogical.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 10:47 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bove,
>>>>
>>>> You somehow think your measure of reality is superior because it is
>>>> somehow "objective?"  But your objectivity discounts multitudes of eons of
>>>> subjective observation.  Call it what you will, but it is deep in the genes.
>>>> Your standard is modern, but not inherently superior.  It has its benefits,
>>>> but its horrors are also rife.  A real scientist would look at the eons of
>>>> other esoteric sciences and be less hostile. They don't threaten you.  They
>>>> don't care about you.  Truth will prevail.
>>>>
>>>> David Morris
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 5:39 PM, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not picking a fight. I'm in fact doing the opposite, trying to take
>>>>> this seriously.  But  Chunlian Al Huang said or did this, and Spinoza
>>>>> thought that in the 15th century and even Nietsche gave it a green light ...
>>>>> The two houses of the brain ... (Why "houses"?), natural wisdom, a helix
>>>>> curved ...  By any standard this is laughable non-science, and so you have
>>>>> to fall back on the argument that science misses important keys of knowledge
>>>>> or undiscovered pathways or the wisdom of the ancients or whatever.  If you
>>>>> can't do better than that or, instead, offer up anecdotal evidence ("my
>>>>> backache's gone!"), it's on the level of astrology.
>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 at 2:20 PM
>>>>> From: "Ian Livingston" <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "ish mailian" <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: "pynchon -l" <Pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>>>> Keith, my teacher's teacher was Chunliang Al Huang. It is a less
>>>>> martial, more simply chi-oriented style that resembles dance more than
>>>>> combat-training--but, then, tai chi chuan resembles dance in individual
>>>>> practice anyhow, doesn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Joseph, there is indeed support for the linear / holistic activities
>>>>> for recognizing a division of labor between the two houses of the brain.
>>>>> Language is associated with the left brain, so pretty much all we express in
>>>>> linguistic terms (remembering that mathematics is a language, as may
>>>>> movement be) is dominated by left-brain activity. That, of course, implies
>>>>> that even the most finely-honed linguistic approaches to expression also
>>>>> engage the broader, synthetic functions of the creative, visionary areas of
>>>>> the right brain. I look forward to reading The M & Em.
>>>>>
>>>>> And pain, yes. Some of the neurons associated with pain messages extend
>>>>> the entire distance from the mid-brain to the tip of the big toe. That can
>>>>> be a 7' long neuron. Don't know where I'm going with that, but, hey--it's
>>>>> just one of those remarkable factoids contained within the fact of the
>>>>> non-duality of the body and mental activity. It still fascinates me that
>>>>> Spinoza postulated that argument so effectively in the 15th c. That's quite
>>>>> a stretch for a lens grinder! For all his eagerness to dismiss Spinoza for
>>>>> his methods, even Nietzsche embraced the rightness of his thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:47 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In this brief and simple piece some of the ideas discussed here
>>>>>> recently are addressed. One of the ideas is the Natural wisdom we
>>>>>> have, of our bodies, bodies that are not separate from our heads or
>>>>>> minds, not divided. .  We got here without much of modern medicine's
>>>>>> miracles. The miracle of conception, of two sharing the energies of
>>>>>> life, the double, is a black hole, is a helix curved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does Lamaze “Work”?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3431777/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.timeshighereducation.com/content/book-review-black-hole-by-marcia-bartusiak
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/12/lifes-greatest-secret-story-race-genetic-code-matthew-cobb-review
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > Just caught your reply tonight. Thanks for the feedback. Your
>>>>>> > experience with accupuncture, where the healing takes place overnight, is
>>>>>> > typical of several people I have talked with and my own experience. Makes me
>>>>>> > think pain works in the brain in a self-reinforcing cycle. I find that
>>>>>> > sending consciousness and , in my imagination, breath/chi to an aggravated
>>>>>> > or painful area while doing qigong exercises has reliably good results.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > As far as the hemisphere differences, McGilchrist often repeats what
>>>>>> > your studies are saying that complex processes engage  more than one
>>>>>> > hemisphere. But it does seem irrefutable that when there is for instance a
>>>>>> > stroke that severely impairs one hemisphere or the other the disabilities
>>>>>> > are dramatically different for each and fall into distinct patterns of
>>>>>> > effect that point both to the kinds of things that each hemispere is likely
>>>>>> > to handle and to the way each side processes personal experiences and mental
>>>>>> > tasks.  Of course what is hard to tell by that means would be something that
>>>>>> > initiates in one hemispere and is sent to the other  for the bulk of
>>>>>> > processing. But his extensive citations show he is not alone in his leanings
>>>>>> > about some general and specific  differences between the hemisperes.
>>>>>> > McGilchrists mastery of the current reasearch is not of a pop-science
>>>>>> > quality, but the expression of a life devoted to brain research and its
>>>>>> > interpretation in a larger context.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 4:00 AM, Ian Livingston
>>>>>> >> <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> A single accupuncture treatment cured my sciatica a decade ago
>>>>>> >> after I had thrown useless hundreds away on massage therapy and chiropractic
>>>>>> >> treatment. The next step was to be weeks of bed rest I could not afford
>>>>>> >> combined with pain meds. Would've cost thousands in lost work and expenses.
>>>>>> >> On a whim, because I figured I had nothing to lose, I stopped at an
>>>>>> >> accupuncture school in Santa Cruz, Ca, where I lived at the time, and got a
>>>>>> >> low-cost treatment from an advanced student. That night the pain was
>>>>>> >> incredible, but I eventually fell asleep and woke in the morning pain-free,
>>>>>> >> with full range of motion. True story. I took up tai chi chuan as a
>>>>>> >> maintenance plan, and have had no flare-ups of the pain I experienced while
>>>>>> >> trying to climb trees (I was a full-time arborist then) and carry heavy logs
>>>>>> >> and limbs, and generally bend, lift and twist 8 hours a day.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I do not understand all the energy theories. I've been at the
>>>>>> >> fringes of all that stuff for decades, on and off, of course, but I've
>>>>>> >> mostly worked in heavy labor and played in book-learning. It was shortly
>>>>>> >> after the incident with the sciatica that I took up a serious Zen meditation
>>>>>> >> practice, which did wonders for helping me to stop smoking and quit caffeine
>>>>>> >> without anxiety or cravings. I went on to study Chinese alchemy as a result
>>>>>> >> of reading Jung on the subject, and found myself in agreement with him that
>>>>>> >> alchemy is indeed a psychological pursuit of integrity on a relatively
>>>>>> >> subtle level. There's a terrific little intro book used in Traditional
>>>>>> >> Chinese Medicine schools here in CA, The Web That Has No Weaver. Worth a
>>>>>> >> look.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> In direct response to your query, Joseph, my profs were cautious
>>>>>> >> about the left-brain / right-brain differentiation primarily because recent
>>>>>> >> work with fMRI studies shows that, when complex problems are presented, the
>>>>>> >> whole brain lights up, with higher activity levels in some areas than in
>>>>>> >> others. Also, the role of the corpus collosum appears to be that of making
>>>>>> >> sure that action potentials carry effectively between the two cerebral
>>>>>> >> lobes. Furthermore, it would be false to say that the entire brain is
>>>>>> >> divided by the corpus collosum. Only the cerebral cortex is thus divided and
>>>>>> >> united, as it were. The why of that is the study of a great many lifetimes.
>>>>>> >> Maybe humans will someday know. One of the darkest areas of brain research
>>>>>> >> is still to do with neurotransmitters. Research reveals how they work in
>>>>>> >> synapses, but how many operate within the brain is still anybody's guess,
>>>>>> >> and the functions of only a very few are known. Folks are discovering new
>>>>>> >> ones all the time.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I'll leave off with a wonderful quote from one of my neuropsych
>>>>>> >> texts: "The number of possible synaptic connections in a normal human brain
>>>>>> >> exceeds the number molecules in the known universe." I suspect it'll be a
>>>>>> >> while before we fully understand an organ with that level of potential
>>>>>> >> complexity.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The Chinese have been working with energy flow  for thousands of
>>>>>> >> years and have developed a medical system based on it that is very
>>>>>> >> effective. The west too is beginning to study the flow of low level electric
>>>>>> >> charge in the body.   Many would have mocked  mindfulness meditation as
>>>>>> >> having any value a decade ago. Now, based on clinical trials, it is being
>>>>>> >> incorporated into western medical practice. Tibetan herbs are being used in
>>>>>> >> medical operations in Israel to minimize drug side effects and improve the
>>>>>> >> speed and comfort of healing.  Such herbs are being studied in Switzerland
>>>>>> >> and Germany for the treatment of high cholesterol.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> At 64 i have personally only found increased flexibility, better
>>>>>> >> posture,  improved non drug -dependent energy levels, and other sometimes
>>>>>> >> dramatically  positive effects from yoga, acupuncture, tai chi and qigong. I
>>>>>> >> teach a small class on qi-gong and tai chi and others report similar
>>>>>> >> positive results.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I understand  and practice skepticism. I see from a friends post
>>>>>> >> that the Dalai Lama is going in for prostate surgery. No Kundalini bolt up
>>>>>> >> the spine for me so far.  I don’t so much believe in energy meridians as
>>>>>> >> hold them in my mind as a map, and pay attention to my actual experience
>>>>>> >> with qigong practices. Accupuncture can be simply amazing for things that
>>>>>> >> doctors can’t seem to treat. Myself and several very rational friends have
>>>>>> >> seen severe chronic pain from an injury disappear overnight through
>>>>>> >> accupuncture.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> > On Jan 26, 2016, at 4:38 PM, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > And you too?  The Kundalini awakening???  Good luck.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 at 4:33 PM
>>>>>> >> > From: "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>> >> > To: "P-list List" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>>>>> >> > Very interesting response in that I am myself very engaged
>>>>>> >> > currently with trying to learn to meditate with particular interest in the
>>>>>> >> > Kundalini awakening. For years I have done yoga and for the last 3 years
>>>>>> >> > have shifted my interest to qigong and tai chi. But for a couple months now
>>>>>> >> > I have been trying to meditate and doing some breath practices. If you have
>>>>>> >> > any personal thoughts or advice or suggestions for reading or online info, I
>>>>>> >> > would be interested. With qigong I am experiencing very discernible warmth
>>>>>> >> > and tingling in my arms and hands and have been able to profoundly and at
>>>>>> >> > least for 2 months now, completely relieve some muscle knots in my left
>>>>>> >> > shoulder and neck - knots that had been with me for probably cloose to a
>>>>>> >> > decade.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > In general it seems that asian philosophies and practices have
>>>>>> >> > much greater emphasis on balance. The idea/knowledge base that the central
>>>>>> >> > channel has no power of its own is something I had missed but really fits
>>>>>> >> > with role of emptiness in Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism. Anyway thanks, David.
>>>>>> >> > This one went right past the conversation at hand to hit dead center of my
>>>>>> >> > own interests and pursuits.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 4:00 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > In Eastern meditation/spiritual schools there is a concept of
>>>>>> >> > > Kundalini energy that is the life-source of all animated flesh. This model
>>>>>> >> > > is part of the ages-old Chakra system that illustrates the pathways of
>>>>>> >> > > something called the "subtle body." In that model chakras are nodes of
>>>>>> >> > > energy passage, crossings along the vertical main highways of the three main
>>>>>> >> > > energy channels: the Right side (Bingala Nadi), the Left side (Ida Nali),
>>>>>> >> > > and the Central channel (Sushumna Nadi). In some ways it might be said that
>>>>>> >> > > the goal of meditation when it come to the workings of the Chakra system, is
>>>>>> >> > > to achieve a balanced blending of the right and left energy channels into
>>>>>> >> > > the central channel, achieving a synthesis greater then the sum of the two
>>>>>> >> > > sides, because the central channel has no power of its own, only that
>>>>>> >> > > supplied from the two sides. But when the two sides unify into the center,
>>>>>> >> > > that is when transcendence happens.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > I expect the bicameral structure of the brain might be also
>>>>>> >> > > mapped to this ancient system.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > http://www.freemeditationnz.com/our-three-energy-channels.html
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > David Morris
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > On Monday, January 25, 2016, Ian Livingston
>>>>>> >> > > <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> > > My neuropsych profs were eager to caution that we have now
>>>>>> >> > > reached such a deep understanding of the brain and its functions that we can
>>>>>> >> > > at last say with confidence that we know almost nothing about it.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Joseph Tracy
>>>>>> >> > > <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >> > > Yes I read those reviews. What I am finding so far is that the
>>>>>> >> > > book is very careful to build its picture of how the hemispheres work from
>>>>>> >> > > data. Every step of the way, he draws on research and is very careful so far
>>>>>> >> > > not to overreach and to include differing takes on that data. One of the
>>>>>> >> > > things he points out is that brain science is with current technology and
>>>>>> >> > > perhaps will always be a matter of intelligent interpretation since it deals
>>>>>> >> > > with qualities and actions for which quantification makes little sense, like
>>>>>> >> > > empathy, unjustified self confidence, manual grasping behaviors etc. Also it
>>>>>> >> > > is almost impossible to really track the mechanisms involved( if they really
>>>>>> >> > > are of a mechanistic nature) because they take place in a living organism.
>>>>>> >> > > So brain scans give correspondences between activities and brain metabolism
>>>>>> >> > > but not clearly detailed causal relationships. Also many mental processes
>>>>>> >> > > draw on both sides of the brain which he frequently reminds the reader.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > Stlll, I think any reader will be surprised and amazed at the
>>>>>> >> > > wealth and specificity of the data and how much can be meaningfully and
>>>>>> >> > > confidently understood about the hemispheric differences. I know I am.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > It is true that he is trying to say something philosophically
>>>>>> >> > > profound and that is always dangerous terrain, though I have not gotten to
>>>>>> >> > > the heart of that part of the text. The question is whether there is enough
>>>>>> >> > > data to support it. So far the data base is so rich that the book cannot
>>>>>> >> > > fail to leave a powerful imprint and sense of enriched understanding for me.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Paul Mackin
>>>>>> >> > > > <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > > One of a number of favorable reviews, this one glowing.
>>>>>> >> > > > However a couple of reviewers according to Wikipedia cautioned against
>>>>>> >> > > > culture and psychology conclusions getting too far ahead of hard brain
>>>>>> >> > > > science.
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > > http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/jan/02/1
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 6:39 AM, Mark Kohut
>>>>>> >> > > > <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> > > > "You're gonna want your cause and effect, eh?"
>>>>>> >> > > > Since his first book is entitled Against Criticism, I hope he
>>>>>> >> > > > isn't IN GR--
>>>>>> >> > > > but I'll mic drop in advance. ......
>>>>>> >> > > > Just a little metajoke there, heh, heh.
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > > On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Joseph Tracy
>>>>>> >> > > > <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >> > > > I am currently reading Iain McGilchrist’s The Master and his
>>>>>> >> > > > Emissary
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > > One of the most scientifically, psychologically and
>>>>>> >> > > > philosophically profound books I have ever read. It really has me reeling
>>>>>> >> > > > with information and insight and makes sense of so much that seems
>>>>>> >> > > > inscrutable in human history and personal behavior. I came across the title
>>>>>> >> > > > and a description with a brief quote while doing research on another book.
>>>>>> >> > > > It seemed the more intriguing book so I got it from the library. Will be
>>>>>> >> > > > looking for a used copy.
>>>>>> >> > > > The topic is the roles of the 2 hemispheres of the brain and
>>>>>> >> > > > he brings together an unexpected wealth of medical/scientific research, both
>>>>>> >> > > > contemprary and historic to build a very powerful picture of the nature of
>>>>>> >> > > > each hemisphere, as well as the evolutionary logic of their differentiation.
>>>>>> >> > > > Both from the introduction and from some peeks ahead I know he has a
>>>>>> >> > > > philosophic intention that argues for a greater balance in our cultural
>>>>>> >> > > > biases, and greater awareness of the brain-structure origins of those
>>>>>> >> > > > biases.
>>>>>> >> > > > From a Pynchon reader POV McGilchrist takes on the brain
>>>>>> >> > > > structure basis of major themes and historic tendencies that appear
>>>>>> >> > > > throughout the body of P’s work. Essentially it is about the division in the
>>>>>> >> > > > brain between left hemisphere’s tendency to seek and produce control
>>>>>> >> > > > achieved through manipulable units of thought, communication, structure,
>>>>>> >> > > > manufacture and the right brain’s holistic, individualistic and socially
>>>>>> >> > > > empathic style. ( there is no way to adequadetly summarize this or the pages
>>>>>> >> > > > of precise information derived from scientific research). This struggle
>>>>>> >> > > > appers in all P books and with profound starkness in Pynchon’s essay on CP
>>>>>> >> > > > Snow, and the GR theme of mechanistic control vs nature/pursuit of
>>>>>> >> > > > bliss/personal freedom, humane solidarity.
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > > The writer’s background for this book is about as good as
>>>>>> >> > > > possible. Professional Psychiatrist specializing in physiological brain
>>>>>> >> > > > issues, a researcher in neuro-imaging and an Oxford English teacher 3 times
>>>>>> >> > > > elected Fellow at All Souls College. Of equal or greater importance is the
>>>>>> >> > > > originality of his brilliance and the humane depth of his quest to
>>>>>> >> > > > understand how our brain structure fits into our historic development, and
>>>>>> >> > > > his sense that understanding these things might free us to find a better way
>>>>>> >> > > > forward.
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > > Has anyone else read it?
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > > 462 pgs of text and over 100 of end notes etc.-
>>>>>> >> > > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > > >
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > -
>>>>>> >> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > -
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>> >> > - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> -
>>>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -
>>>>>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>
>>>>> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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