Bi-cameral brains in depth

[Steven Koteff]

Really nice post. 

Out on a limb here, It's almost like...the dualism requires a...balance? For optimal (left brain here) execution of...life-affirming (right brain stirring)...humano-cosmic..(they begin trading blows)warmth and light (right brain domming left, left loving it)...? 

> On Feb 5, 2016, at 2:30 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> 
> Been Away, Didn’t imagine this thread would continue. 
> Good honest communication here from Stephen. Our ideas change with experience or solidify, or compost.
> It can be hard to disagree civilly and respectfully. Something I certainly struggle with.  
> Insults tend to end arguments and initiate defense mechanisms and more of the same. 
> What is intresting as one who is now in the philosophical center of the book that kicked off the thread, is the way the list's arguments reflect the author’s  descriptions of how the hemisphere differences have played out in the history of philosophy.  The western materialist/ mechanistic/science based world view makes very large claims because its processing power comes from the expertise of the left hemisphere which likes to break all whole sytems into manipulable component parts and presumes that this will lead to an understanding of the rules by which the parts interact. It yields a great deal of useable information, and thus appears like the keys to all knowledge.  It also tends to be very jealous of its theories, which are often wrong and in constant need of revision. The right brain is more provisional about theories and more intiuitively practical.  An example  is given of a person with impairment to the right hemisphere, and a person with left hemisphere impairment facing the same task. They were to guess which color, red or green, would be displayed next. The pattern was changed but there were 4 greens for every red. The persons with intact right brains saw the pattern and always guessed green to get 80% correct. The person with an intact left brain tried to figure out the pattern and guessed green 4 times more than red but with far more incorrect guesses. The left brainer, despite a lower percent was also sure it could crack the pattern. Later the experimenters started to provide whatever color the left brainer guessed. The left brainer was sure they had figured out the pattern and went to lengths to explain it. Obviously their thories were wrong. There is a need for certainty and to be right and a confidence despite impossible chances of success. 
> 
> One of the things that many recent philosophers  came to consider out of a dissatisfaction with centuries of logical rationalism boils down to the idea that any divorce between science and poetry, music and logic is an attempt to split the nature of what is whole and inseparable. 
> If this is true, then once you stop trying to dig the hole to the center of the universe, the medicines for hole digging mania are everywhere and the chances of hole remediation increase dramatically.
> Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that all parts are imaginary and while they ar edefined by
>> On Feb 3, 2016, at 10:36 AM, Steven Koteff <steviekoteff at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> "Hate-utterance" is not good, and this community or any would be better with none such shit. Though in this particular case I feel more inclined to respond with compassion and pity (which gets a bad rap) than an impulse to want to expel somebody (i.e. Bove). I dunno. Maybe I'm abnormally unsensitive to what you call trolls, or maybe I think that the kind of trolling that merits that kind of response hasn't really happened in this case. I've only been hanging around this list for ~2-3 years, and have been participating way less than that, so take my thoughts for what they're worth.
>> 
>> I think Pynchon's work advocates (in that it comes from) a stance that is marginal, that is ever on the fringe of any community, and that is provocative (even if TRP might have his provocateurs be a bit more puckish, happy, nice). I have seen several instances, in my time here, of someone rising to anger and insults, especially in the heat of an argument about opposing ideas. When this happens, I brace myself. But then what usually happens, at least in my time, is that the community absorbs the blow--loving its members at their worst, you could say--and actually ends up responding in a way that you could call loving. That allows the angry person to maintain his or her dignity. That continues to respect and address the opinions of the angry person.
>> 
>> I can tell you a bit about my experience as someone who suffers every day for/from an often uncontrollably turbulent emotional life. Feeling that the collective mind of the world or your community does not square with your own is a horribly isolating feeling, and what is translated (via speech/behavior) as anger or hostility or hatred really is confusion, existential frustration, etc. And but being this kind of person, making the occasional mistake in how you treat others is inevitable. But then how others respond is crucial. When people become afraid of you, or are angry in response, they often narratize you as being sort of a villain, or an outcast. This only increases the frustration and confusion, which makes it impossible for you to right the ship, as it were. But when other people have the ability to respond with patience, understanding, and love (if you're so able, you're so responsible, I think), you don't have to be afraid to calm down, to come back to the world, to seek forgiveness, to be nice and sane again. (This makes me think of the difference in recidivism between, say, US convicts and Norwegian convicts). 
>> 
>> Maybe that all seems far afield.
>> 
>> But can I ask, would we be so offended if, in this particular thread, Bove was endorsing a worldview more convergent with that of many of the people here?
>> 
>> I think his perspective in this matter is actually pretty important around here. (Again, very junior Plist member speaking, so take with salt.) I can say for my own sake that most of the Western-oriented, essentialist, materialist, "objective" stuff Bove is talking about is something I would've probably agreed with as recently as 2013. And I still understand the point of view. It doesn't seem so disharmonious with what mine is now, or what many of yours seem to be. You guys all seem like very smart and curious people, and a result of that is--I'm guessing--that whatever you hold to be fundamentally true about the world right now might seem like utter bullshit to you in a few years. At least that has been the pattern in my own life, and it's a pattern I respect in others. Dismissing the Bovean POV is actually doing the exact thing you are trying to dismiss, in some way. It is a belief in the infallibility of one's own point of view, even if one believes that one has adopted a point of view that rejects any notion of infallibility. 
>> 
>> I don't know what most of your actual lives look like. But I do know that I have the frequent sensation that I have become untethered from the country I live in. It's the books I read, the ideas they hold, the company I keep, the drugs I take. All of it seems to be good for my soul. But then when I go to work, say, and someone tries to have a real conversation with me, I am often rudely awoken by just how far I've diverged from, I dunno, the zeitgeist. 
>> 
>> There was a thread on here a few weeks ago asking what books you could no longer read since you read Gravity's Rainbow. How about what people you can no longer talk to?
>> 
>> I feel like Pynchon would have us respect and preserve the dialectic. I for one am wary of a community that can't deal with dissent, especially since that's the only stance I've ever really known how to take myself--and I'm guessing, if you found your way into this list, it's probably true of you lot as well.
>> 
>> I'm probably straw-manning you here, Thibs. I know you are saying you just don't want people to be abusive, and I'm guessing, in your online/blogging life, you've encountered all sorts of harassment I'll never know. Don't mean to diminish or ignore all that. I guess I'm just saying I think Bove should be president of the Plist. 
>> 
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Q: Why is Bove still allowed to participate here? His first message to
>> this group was essentially a single-sentence hate-utterance, and he
>> OBJECTIVELY wallows in his ignorance as though parading in his glory.
>> 
>> He's a classic troll. Time to fumigate the bridge.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Jerky LeBoeuf, esq.
>> 
>>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Check out this video: http://youtu.be/s1ZoEE9Kgu0
>>> 
>>> Www.innergroovemusic.com
>>> 
>>> On Feb 2, 2016, at 3:40 AM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not sure where you're getting your fluff there, Bove. I never said anything
>>> about anything Al Huang said or did. Your attempt to dismiss the current
>>> hard science on how the central nervous system works by looking for holes in
>>> a few casual statements sounds a bit like a drunken spiel. Why houses?
>>> Because I felt like saying houses, that's why. Now pick up a few good
>>> current texts on neuroscience and do some reading before you get too far
>>> into your next fifth.
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 8:27 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Bove,
>>>> 
>>>> By illogical, I would cite your obvious arrogance, opposing so much that
>>>> you have never even tried to experience. This realm of reality is known best
>>>> by personal experience. "My back doesn't hurt" is just the first layer of
>>>> that kind of experience, as wonderful as is that kind of healing.  But the
>>>> first step in the path of experiencing that reality is humility, which you
>>>> lack in spades.  Your choice.
>>>> 
>>>> David Morris
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Monday, February 1, 2016, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: Monday, February 1, 2016
>>>>> Subject: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>>>> To: john bove <malignd at gmx.com>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your faith in Science above all other knowledge is illogical.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 10:47 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bove,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You somehow think your measure of reality is superior because it is
>>>>>> somehow "objective?"  But your objectivity discounts multitudes of eons of
>>>>>> subjective observation.  Call it what you will, but it is deep in the genes.
>>>>>> Your standard is modern, but not inherently superior.  It has its benefits,
>>>>>> but its horrors are also rife.  A real scientist would look at the eons of
>>>>>> other esoteric sciences and be less hostile. They don't threaten you.  They
>>>>>> don't care about you.  Truth will prevail.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 5:39 PM, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm not picking a fight. I'm in fact doing the opposite, trying to take
>>>>>>> this seriously.  But  Chunlian Al Huang said or did this, and Spinoza
>>>>>>> thought that in the 15th century and even Nietsche gave it a green light ...
>>>>>>> The two houses of the brain ... (Why "houses"?), natural wisdom, a helix
>>>>>>> curved ...  By any standard this is laughable non-science, and so you have
>>>>>>> to fall back on the argument that science misses important keys of knowledge
>>>>>>> or undiscovered pathways or the wisdom of the ancients or whatever.  If you
>>>>>>> can't do better than that or, instead, offer up anecdotal evidence ("my
>>>>>>> backache's gone!"), it's on the level of astrology.
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 at 2:20 PM
>>>>>>> From: "Ian Livingston" <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "ish mailian" <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: "pynchon -l" <Pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>>>>>> Keith, my teacher's teacher was Chunliang Al Huang. It is a less
>>>>>>> martial, more simply chi-oriented style that resembles dance more than
>>>>>>> combat-training--but, then, tai chi chuan resembles dance in individual
>>>>>>> practice anyhow, doesn't it?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Joseph, there is indeed support for the linear / holistic activities
>>>>>>> for recognizing a division of labor between the two houses of the brain.
>>>>>>> Language is associated with the left brain, so pretty much all we express in
>>>>>>> linguistic terms (remembering that mathematics is a language, as may
>>>>>>> movement be) is dominated by left-brain activity. That, of course, implies
>>>>>>> that even the most finely-honed linguistic approaches to expression also
>>>>>>> engage the broader, synthetic functions of the creative, visionary areas of
>>>>>>> the right brain. I look forward to reading The M & Em.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And pain, yes. Some of the neurons associated with pain messages extend
>>>>>>> the entire distance from the mid-brain to the tip of the big toe. That can
>>>>>>> be a 7' long neuron. Don't know where I'm going with that, but, hey--it's
>>>>>>> just one of those remarkable factoids contained within the fact of the
>>>>>>> non-duality of the body and mental activity. It still fascinates me that
>>>>>>> Spinoza postulated that argument so effectively in the 15th c. That's quite
>>>>>>> a stretch for a lens grinder! For all his eagerness to dismiss Spinoza for
>>>>>>> his methods, even Nietzsche embraced the rightness of his thought.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:47 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In this brief and simple piece some of the ideas discussed here
>>>>>>>> recently are addressed. One of the ideas is the Natural wisdom we
>>>>>>>> have, of our bodies, bodies that are not separate from our heads or
>>>>>>>> minds, not divided. .  We got here without much of modern medicine's
>>>>>>>> miracles. The miracle of conception, of two sharing the energies of
>>>>>>>> life, the double, is a black hole, is a helix curved.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Does Lamaze “Work”?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3431777/
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> https://www.timeshighereducation.com/content/book-review-black-hole-by-marcia-bartusiak
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/12/lifes-greatest-secret-story-race-genetic-code-matthew-cobb-review
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Just caught your reply tonight. Thanks for the feedback. Your
>>>>>>>>> experience with accupuncture, where the healing takes place overnight, is
>>>>>>>>> typical of several people I have talked with and my own experience. Makes me
>>>>>>>>> think pain works in the brain in a self-reinforcing cycle. I find that
>>>>>>>>> sending consciousness and , in my imagination, breath/chi to an aggravated
>>>>>>>>> or painful area while doing qigong exercises has reliably good results.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As far as the hemisphere differences, McGilchrist often repeats what
>>>>>>>>> your studies are saying that complex processes engage  more than one
>>>>>>>>> hemisphere. But it does seem irrefutable that when there is for instance a
>>>>>>>>> stroke that severely impairs one hemisphere or the other the disabilities
>>>>>>>>> are dramatically different for each and fall into distinct patterns of
>>>>>>>>> effect that point both to the kinds of things that each hemispere is likely
>>>>>>>>> to handle and to the way each side processes personal experiences and mental
>>>>>>>>> tasks.  Of course what is hard to tell by that means would be something that
>>>>>>>>> initiates in one hemispere and is sent to the other  for the bulk of
>>>>>>>>> processing. But his extensive citations show he is not alone in his leanings
>>>>>>>>> about some general and specific  differences between the hemisperes.
>>>>>>>>> McGilchrists mastery of the current reasearch is not of a pop-science
>>>>>>>>> quality, but the expression of a life devoted to brain research and its
>>>>>>>>> interpretation in a larger context.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 4:00 AM, Ian Livingston
>>>>>>>>>> <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> A single accupuncture treatment cured my sciatica a decade ago
>>>>>>>>>> after I had thrown useless hundreds away on massage therapy and chiropractic
>>>>>>>>>> treatment. The next step was to be weeks of bed rest I could not afford
>>>>>>>>>> combined with pain meds. Would've cost thousands in lost work and expenses.
>>>>>>>>>> On a whim, because I figured I had nothing to lose, I stopped at an
>>>>>>>>>> accupuncture school in Santa Cruz, Ca, where I lived at the time, and got a
>>>>>>>>>> low-cost treatment from an advanced student. That night the pain was
>>>>>>>>>> incredible, but I eventually fell asleep and woke in the morning pain-free,
>>>>>>>>>> with full range of motion. True story. I took up tai chi chuan as a
>>>>>>>>>> maintenance plan, and have had no flare-ups of the pain I experienced while
>>>>>>>>>> trying to climb trees (I was a full-time arborist then) and carry heavy logs
>>>>>>>>>> and limbs, and generally bend, lift and twist 8 hours a day.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I do not understand all the energy theories. I've been at the
>>>>>>>>>> fringes of all that stuff for decades, on and off, of course, but I've
>>>>>>>>>> mostly worked in heavy labor and played in book-learning. It was shortly
>>>>>>>>>> after the incident with the sciatica that I took up a serious Zen meditation
>>>>>>>>>> practice, which did wonders for helping me to stop smoking and quit caffeine
>>>>>>>>>> without anxiety or cravings. I went on to study Chinese alchemy as a result
>>>>>>>>>> of reading Jung on the subject, and found myself in agreement with him that
>>>>>>>>>> alchemy is indeed a psychological pursuit of integrity on a relatively
>>>>>>>>>> subtle level. There's a terrific little intro book used in Traditional
>>>>>>>>>> Chinese Medicine schools here in CA, The Web That Has No Weaver. Worth a
>>>>>>>>>> look.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In direct response to your query, Joseph, my profs were cautious
>>>>>>>>>> about the left-brain / right-brain differentiation primarily because recent
>>>>>>>>>> work with fMRI studies shows that, when complex problems are presented, the
>>>>>>>>>> whole brain lights up, with higher activity levels in some areas than in
>>>>>>>>>> others. Also, the role of the corpus collosum appears to be that of making
>>>>>>>>>> sure that action potentials carry effectively between the two cerebral
>>>>>>>>>> lobes. Furthermore, it would be false to say that the entire brain is
>>>>>>>>>> divided by the corpus collosum. Only the cerebral cortex is thus divided and
>>>>>>>>>> united, as it were. The why of that is the study of a great many lifetimes.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe humans will someday know. One of the darkest areas of brain research
>>>>>>>>>> is still to do with neurotransmitters. Research reveals how they work in
>>>>>>>>>> synapses, but how many operate within the brain is still anybody's guess,
>>>>>>>>>> and the functions of only a very few are known. Folks are discovering new
>>>>>>>>>> ones all the time.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I'll leave off with a wonderful quote from one of my neuropsych
>>>>>>>>>> texts: "The number of possible synaptic connections in a normal human brain
>>>>>>>>>> exceeds the number molecules in the known universe." I suspect it'll be a
>>>>>>>>>> while before we fully understand an organ with that level of potential
>>>>>>>>>> complexity.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The Chinese have been working with energy flow  for thousands of
>>>>>>>>>> years and have developed a medical system based on it that is very
>>>>>>>>>> effective. The west too is beginning to study the flow of low level electric
>>>>>>>>>> charge in the body.   Many would have mocked  mindfulness meditation as
>>>>>>>>>> having any value a decade ago. Now, based on clinical trials, it is being
>>>>>>>>>> incorporated into western medical practice. Tibetan herbs are being used in
>>>>>>>>>> medical operations in Israel to minimize drug side effects and improve the
>>>>>>>>>> speed and comfort of healing.  Such herbs are being studied in Switzerland
>>>>>>>>>> and Germany for the treatment of high cholesterol.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> At 64 i have personally only found increased flexibility, better
>>>>>>>>>> posture,  improved non drug -dependent energy levels, and other sometimes
>>>>>>>>>> dramatically  positive effects from yoga, acupuncture, tai chi and qigong. I
>>>>>>>>>> teach a small class on qi-gong and tai chi and others report similar
>>>>>>>>>> positive results.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I understand  and practice skepticism. I see from a friends post
>>>>>>>>>> that the Dalai Lama is going in for prostate surgery. No Kundalini bolt up
>>>>>>>>>> the spine for me so far.  I don’t so much believe in energy meridians as
>>>>>>>>>> hold them in my mind as a map, and pay attention to my actual experience
>>>>>>>>>> with qigong practices. Accupuncture can be simply amazing for things that
>>>>>>>>>> doctors can’t seem to treat. Myself and several very rational friends have
>>>>>>>>>> seen severe chronic pain from an injury disappear overnight through
>>>>>>>>>> accupuncture.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 4:38 PM, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> And you too?  The Kundalini awakening???  Good luck.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 at 4:33 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "P-list List" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>>>>>>>>>> Very interesting response in that I am myself very engaged
>>>>>>>>>>> currently with trying to learn to meditate with particular interest in the
>>>>>>>>>>> Kundalini awakening. For years I have done yoga and for the last 3 years
>>>>>>>>>>> have shifted my interest to qigong and tai chi. But for a couple months now
>>>>>>>>>>> I have been trying to meditate and doing some breath practices. If you have
>>>>>>>>>>> any personal thoughts or advice or suggestions for reading or online info, I
>>>>>>>>>>> would be interested. With qigong I am experiencing very discernible warmth
>>>>>>>>>>> and tingling in my arms and hands and have been able to profoundly and at
>>>>>>>>>>> least for 2 months now, completely relieve some muscle knots in my left
>>>>>>>>>>> shoulder and neck - knots that had been with me for probably cloose to a
>>>>>>>>>>> decade.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> In general it seems that asian philosophies and practices have
>>>>>>>>>>> much greater emphasis on balance. The idea/knowledge base that the central
>>>>>>>>>>> channel has no power of its own is something I had missed but really fits
>>>>>>>>>>> with role of emptiness in Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism. Anyway thanks, David.
>>>>>>>>>>> This one went right past the conversation at hand to hit dead center of my
>>>>>>>>>>> own interests and pursuits.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2016, at 4:00 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Eastern meditation/spiritual schools there is a concept of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kundalini energy that is the life-source of all animated flesh. This model
>>>>>>>>>>>> is part of the ages-old Chakra system that illustrates the pathways of
>>>>>>>>>>>> something called the "subtle body." In that model chakras are nodes of
>>>>>>>>>>>> energy passage, crossings along the vertical main highways of the three main
>>>>>>>>>>>> energy channels: the Right side (Bingala Nadi), the Left side (Ida Nali),
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Central channel (Sushumna Nadi). In some ways it might be said that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the goal of meditation when it come to the workings of the Chakra system, is
>>>>>>>>>>>> to achieve a balanced blending of the right and left energy channels into
>>>>>>>>>>>> the central channel, achieving a synthesis greater then the sum of the two
>>>>>>>>>>>> sides, because the central channel has no power of its own, only that
>>>>>>>>>>>> supplied from the two sides. But when the two sides unify into the center,
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is when transcendence happens.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I expect the bicameral structure of the brain might be also
>>>>>>>>>>>> mapped to this ancient system.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.freemeditationnz.com/our-three-energy-channels.html
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 25, 2016, Ian Livingston
>>>>>>>>>>>> <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> My neuropsych profs were eager to caution that we have now
>>>>>>>>>>>> reached such a deep understanding of the brain and its functions that we can
>>>>>>>>>>>> at last say with confidence that we know almost nothing about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Joseph Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>> <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes I read those reviews. What I am finding so far is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> book is very careful to build its picture of how the hemispheres work from
>>>>>>>>>>>> data. Every step of the way, he draws on research and is very careful so far
>>>>>>>>>>>> not to overreach and to include differing takes on that data. One of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> things he points out is that brain science is with current technology and
>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps will always be a matter of intelligent interpretation since it deals
>>>>>>>>>>>> with qualities and actions for which quantification makes little sense, like
>>>>>>>>>>>> empathy, unjustified self confidence, manual grasping behaviors etc. Also it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is almost impossible to really track the mechanisms involved( if they really
>>>>>>>>>>>> are of a mechanistic nature) because they take place in a living organism.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So brain scans give correspondences between activities and brain metabolism
>>>>>>>>>>>> but not clearly detailed causal relationships. Also many mental processes
>>>>>>>>>>>> draw on both sides of the brain which he frequently reminds the reader.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stlll, I think any reader will be surprised and amazed at the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth and specificity of the data and how much can be meaningfully and
>>>>>>>>>>>> confidently understood about the hemispheric differences. I know I am.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is true that he is trying to say something philosophically
>>>>>>>>>>>> profound and that is always dangerous terrain, though I have not gotten to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the heart of that part of the text. The question is whether there is enough
>>>>>>>>>>>> data to support it. So far the data base is so rich that the book cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> fail to leave a powerful imprint and sense of enriched understanding for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Paul Mackin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of a number of favorable reviews, this one glowing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However a couple of reviewers according to Wikipedia cautioned against
>>>>>>>>>>>>> culture and psychology conclusions getting too far ahead of hard brain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/jan/02/1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 6:39 AM, Mark Kohut
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "You're gonna want your cause and effect, eh?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since his first book is entitled Against Criticism, I hope he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't IN GR--
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'll mic drop in advance. ......
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just a little metajoke there, heh, heh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Joseph Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am currently reading Iain McGilchrist’s The Master and his
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Emissary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the most scientifically, psychologically and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophically profound books I have ever read. It really has me reeling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with information and insight and makes sense of so much that seems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inscrutable in human history and personal behavior. I came across the title
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a description with a brief quote while doing research on another book.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seemed the more intriguing book so I got it from the library. Will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking for a used copy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The topic is the roles of the 2 hemispheres of the brain and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> he brings together an unexpected wealth of medical/scientific research, both
>>>>>>>>>>>>> contemprary and historic to build a very powerful picture of the nature of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> each hemisphere, as well as the evolutionary logic of their differentiation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both from the introduction and from some peeks ahead I know he has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophic intention that argues for a greater balance in our cultural
>>>>>>>>>>>>> biases, and greater awareness of the brain-structure origins of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> biases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From a Pynchon reader POV McGilchrist takes on the brain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> structure basis of major themes and historic tendencies that appear
>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout the body of P’s work. Essentially it is about the division in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> brain between left hemisphere’s tendency to seek and produce control
>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieved through manipulable units of thought, communication, structure,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> manufacture and the right brain’s holistic, individualistic and socially
>>>>>>>>>>>>> empathic style. ( there is no way to adequadetly summarize this or the pages
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of precise information derived from scientific research). This struggle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appers in all P books and with profound starkness in Pynchon’s essay on CP
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snow, and the GR theme of mechanistic control vs nature/pursuit of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bliss/personal freedom, humane solidarity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The writer’s background for this book is about as good as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible. Professional Psychiatrist specializing in physiological brain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues, a researcher in neuro-imaging and an Oxford English teacher 3 times
>>>>>>>>>>>>> elected Fellow at All Souls College. Of equal or greater importance is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> originality of his brilliance and the humane depth of his quest to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand how our brain structure fits into our historic development, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> his sense that understanding these things might free us to find a better way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone else read it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 462 pgs of text and over 100 of end notes etc.-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>>>>>>> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> 
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l