Bi-cameral brains in depth

David Morris fqmorris at gmail.com
Fri Feb 5 22:44:16 CST 2016


There have always been things that are not measureable by current
"science." Science is limited by theory and technology.  Science IS a
belief system. If you don't know that, you should check yourself...

David Morris

On Friday, February 5, 2016, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:

> I make myself too important?  If there are things that exist tht are not
> measurable by science, explain to me what it is you're proposing to show
> that they do exist.  Science isn't a belief system; it's a method, a
> program, for verifying or not the things that you want to believe in
> without verification, most of which are tied up with superstition, ancient
> ideas, etc.  and "ultimate realities"?  What the fuck does that mean?
>
> *Sent:* Friday, February 05, 2016 at 10:28 PM
> *From:* "David Morris" <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>>
> *To:* "john bove" <malignd at gmx.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','malignd at gmx.com');>>
> *Cc:* "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pynchon-l at waste.org');>>
> *Subject:* Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
> Bove,
>
> You make yourself too important, like Trump.
>
> There are things that exist that are not measureable by current science.
> There are ultimate realities that defy describing by words, because they
> are beyond words.
>
> Mysteries are real.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Friday, February 5, 2016, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>> Eons of subjective observations that are most typically wrong -- the flat
>> earth, geocentricity, witches, devils, over one thousand invented gods and
>> counting, phlogiston, humours, leeching, Christian scientists, Jung,
>> intelligent designers ...  It may be deep in the genes, but that's
>> precisely why it can't be trusted.  And horrors attributable to the pursuit
>> of objectivity, to the scientific method?  You want it abandoned?  Or do
>> you mean the ends, e.g., atomic bombs, to which that knowledge has been put
>> to -- horrible because effective, because it was correct.
>>
>> And interesting to see how criticism of what one person -- me -- finds
>> unscientific (untestable, subject to irresponsible, anecdotal, and naive
>> claims) makes people so angry.  Someone who has chosen to call himself
>> "Jerky" wants me tossed off the list. Been there before ...
>>
>> Good luck with your pursuits.  I suggest Madame Blavatsky, if you haven't
>> yet embraced her.
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 01, 2016 at 10:47 PM
>> *From:* "David Morris" <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> *To:* "john bove" <malignd at gmx.com>
>> *Cc:* "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>> Bove,
>>
>> You somehow think your measure of reality is superior because it is
>> somehow "objective?"  But your objectivity discounts multitudes of eons of
>> subjective observation.  Call it what you will, but it is deep in the
>> genes. Your standard is modern, but not inherently superior.  It has its
>> benefits, but its horrors are also rife.  A real scientist would look at
>> the eons of other esoteric sciences and be less hostile. They don't
>> threaten you.  They don't care about you.  Truth will prevail.
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 5:39 PM, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not picking a fight. I'm in fact doing the opposite, trying to take
>>> this seriously.  But  Chunlian Al Huang said or did this, and Spinoza
>>> thought that in the 15th century and even Nietsche gave it a green light
>>> ... The two houses of the brain ... (Why "houses"?), natural wisdom, a
>>> helix curved ...  By any standard this is laughable non-science, and so you
>>> have to fall back on the argument that science misses important keys of
>>> knowledge or undiscovered pathways or the wisdom of the ancients or
>>> whatever.  If you can't do better than that or, instead, offer up anecdotal
>>> evidence ("my backache's gone!"), it's on the level of astrology.
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 01, 2016 at 2:20 PM
>>> *From:* "Ian Livingston" <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* "ish mailian" <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* "pynchon -l" <Pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>> Keith, my teacher's teacher was Chunliang Al Huang. It is a less
>>> martial, more simply chi-oriented style that resembles dance more than
>>> combat-training--but, then, tai chi chuan resembles dance in individual
>>> practice anyhow, doesn't it?
>>>
>>> Joseph, there is indeed support for the linear / holistic activities for
>>> recognizing a division of labor between the two houses of the brain.
>>> Language is associated with the left brain, so pretty much all we express
>>> in linguistic terms (remembering that mathematics is a language, as may
>>> movement be) is dominated by left-brain activity. That, of course, implies
>>> that even the most finely-honed linguistic approaches to expression also
>>> engage the broader, synthetic functions of the creative, visionary areas of
>>> the right brain. I look forward to reading The M & Em.
>>>
>>> And pain, yes. Some of the neurons associated with pain messages extend
>>> the entire distance from the mid-brain to the tip of the big toe. That can
>>> be a 7' long neuron. Don't know where I'm going with that, but, hey--it's
>>> just one of those remarkable factoids contained within the fact of the
>>> non-duality of the body and mental activity. It still fascinates me that
>>> Spinoza postulated that argument so effectively in the 15th c. That's quite
>>> a stretch for a lens grinder! For all his eagerness to dismiss Spinoza for
>>> his methods, even Nietzsche embraced the rightness of his thought.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:47 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In this brief and simple piece some of the ideas discussed here
>>>> recently are addressed. One of the ideas is the Natural wisdom we
>>>> have, of our bodies, bodies that are not separate from our heads or
>>>> minds, not divided. .  We got here without much of modern medicine's
>>>> miracles. The miracle of conception, of two sharing the energies of
>>>> life, the double, is a black hole, is a helix curved.
>>>>
>>>> Does Lamaze “Work”?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3431777/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.timeshighereducation.com/content/book-review-black-hole-by-marcia-bartusiak
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/12/lifes-greatest-secret-story-race-genetic-code-matthew-cobb-review
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Just caught your reply tonight. Thanks for the feedback. Your
>>>> experience with accupuncture, where the healing takes place overnight, is
>>>> typical of several people I have talked with and my own experience. Makes
>>>> me think pain works in the brain in a self-reinforcing cycle. I find that
>>>> sending consciousness and , in my imagination, breath/chi to an aggravated
>>>> or painful area while doing qigong exercises has reliably good results.
>>>> >
>>>> > As far as the hemisphere differences, McGilchrist often repeats what
>>>> your studies are saying that complex processes engage  more than one
>>>> hemisphere. But it does seem irrefutable that when there is for instance a
>>>> stroke that severely impairs one hemisphere or the other the disabilities
>>>> are dramatically different for each and fall into distinct patterns of
>>>> effect that point both to the kinds of things that each hemispere is likely
>>>> to handle and to the way each side processes personal experiences and
>>>> mental tasks.  Of course what is hard to tell by that means would be
>>>> something that initiates in one hemispere and is sent to the other  for the
>>>> bulk of processing. But his extensive citations show he is not alone in his
>>>> leanings about some general and specific  differences between the
>>>> hemisperes. McGilchrists mastery of the current reasearch is not of a
>>>> pop-science quality, but the expression of a life devoted to brain research
>>>> and its interpretation in a larger context.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 4:00 AM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> A single accupuncture treatment cured my sciatica a decade ago after
>>>> I had thrown useless hundreds away on massage therapy and chiropractic
>>>> treatment. The next step was to be weeks of bed rest I could not afford
>>>> combined with pain meds. Would've cost thousands in lost work and expenses.
>>>> On a whim, because I figured I had nothing to lose, I stopped at an
>>>> accupuncture school in Santa Cruz, Ca, where I lived at the time, and got a
>>>> low-cost treatment from an advanced student. That night the pain was
>>>> incredible, but I eventually fell asleep and woke in the morning pain-free,
>>>> with full range of motion. True story. I took up tai chi chuan as a
>>>> maintenance plan, and have had no flare-ups of the pain I experienced while
>>>> trying to climb trees (I was a full-time arborist then) and carry heavy
>>>> logs and limbs, and generally bend, lift and twist 8 hours a day.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I do not understand all the energy theories. I've been at the
>>>> fringes of all that stuff for decades, on and off, of course, but I've
>>>> mostly worked in heavy labor and played in book-learning. It was shortly
>>>> after the incident with the sciatica that I took up a serious Zen
>>>> meditation practice, which did wonders for helping me to stop smoking and
>>>> quit caffeine without anxiety or cravings. I went on to study Chinese
>>>> alchemy as a result of reading Jung on the subject, and found myself in
>>>> agreement with him that alchemy is indeed a psychological pursuit of
>>>> integrity on a relatively subtle level. There's a terrific little intro
>>>> book used in Traditional Chinese Medicine schools here in CA, The Web That
>>>> Has No Weaver. Worth a look.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In direct response to your query, Joseph, my profs were cautious
>>>> about the left-brain / right-brain differentiation primarily because recent
>>>> work with fMRI studies shows that, when complex problems are presented, the
>>>> whole brain lights up, with higher activity levels in some areas than in
>>>> others. Also, the role of the corpus collosum appears to be that of making
>>>> sure that action potentials carry effectively between the two cerebral
>>>> lobes. Furthermore, it would be false to say that the entire brain is
>>>> divided by the corpus collosum. Only the cerebral cortex is thus divided
>>>> and united, as it were. The why of that is the study of a great many
>>>> lifetimes. Maybe humans will someday know. One of the darkest areas of
>>>> brain research is still to do with neurotransmitters. Research reveals how
>>>> they work in synapses, but how many operate within the brain is still
>>>> anybody's guess, and the functions of only a very few are known. Folks are
>>>> discovering new ones all the time.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'll leave off with a wonderful quote from one of my neuropsych
>>>> texts: "The number of possible synaptic connections in a normal human brain
>>>> exceeds the number molecules in the known universe." I suspect it'll be a
>>>> while before we fully understand an organ with that level of potential
>>>> complexity.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The Chinese have been working with energy flow  for thousands of
>>>> years and have developed a medical system based on it that is very
>>>> effective. The west too is beginning to study the flow of low level
>>>> electric charge in the body.   Many would have mocked  mindfulness
>>>> meditation as having any value a decade ago. Now, based on clinical trials,
>>>> it is being incorporated into western medical practice. Tibetan herbs are
>>>> being used in medical operations in Israel to minimize drug side effects
>>>> and improve the speed and comfort of healing.  Such herbs are being studied
>>>> in Switzerland and Germany for the treatment of high cholesterol.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> At 64 i have personally only found increased flexibility, better
>>>> posture,  improved non drug -dependent energy levels, and other sometimes
>>>> dramatically  positive effects from yoga, acupuncture, tai chi and qigong.
>>>> I teach a small class on qi-gong and tai chi and others report similar
>>>> positive results.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I understand  and practice skepticism. I see from a friends post
>>>> that the Dalai Lama is going in for prostate surgery. No Kundalini bolt up
>>>> the spine for me so far.  I don’t so much believe in energy meridians as
>>>> hold them in my mind as a map, and pay attention to my actual experience
>>>> with qigong practices. Accupuncture can be simply amazing for things that
>>>> doctors can’t seem to treat. Myself and several very rational friends have
>>>> seen severe chronic pain from an injury disappear overnight through
>>>> accupuncture.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > On Jan 26, 2016, at 4:38 PM, john bove <malignd at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > And you too?  The Kundalini awakening???  Good luck.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 at 4:33 PM
>>>> >> > From: "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> >> > To: "P-list List" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>> >> > Subject: Re: Bi-cameral brains in depth
>>>> >> > Very interesting response in that I am myself very engaged
>>>> currently with trying to learn to meditate with particular interest in the
>>>> Kundalini awakening. For years I have done yoga and for the last 3 years
>>>> have shifted my interest to qigong and tai chi. But for a couple months now
>>>> I have been trying to meditate and doing some breath practices. If you have
>>>> any personal thoughts or advice or suggestions for reading or online info,
>>>> I would be interested. With qigong I am experiencing very discernible
>>>> warmth and tingling in my arms and hands and have been able to profoundly
>>>> and at least for 2 months now, completely relieve some muscle knots in my
>>>> left shoulder and neck - knots that had been with me for probably cloose to
>>>> a decade.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > In general it seems that asian philosophies and practices have
>>>> much greater emphasis on balance. The idea/knowledge base that the central
>>>> channel has no power of its own is something I had missed but really fits
>>>> with role of emptiness in Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism. Anyway thanks,
>>>> David. This one went right past the conversation at hand to hit dead center
>>>> of my own interests and pursuits.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 4:00 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > In Eastern meditation/spiritual schools there is a concept of
>>>> Kundalini energy that is the life-source of all animated flesh. This model
>>>> is part of the ages-old Chakra system that illustrates the pathways of
>>>> something called the "subtle body." In that model chakras are nodes of
>>>> energy passage, crossings along the vertical main highways of the three
>>>> main energy channels: the Right side (Bingala Nadi), the Left side (Ida
>>>> Nali), and the Central channel (Sushumna Nadi). In some ways it might be
>>>> said that the goal of meditation when it come to the workings of the Chakra
>>>> system, is to achieve a balanced blending of the right and left energy
>>>> channels into the central channel, achieving a synthesis greater then the
>>>> sum of the two sides, because the central channel has no power of its own,
>>>> only that supplied from the two sides. But when the two sides unify into
>>>> the center, that is when transcendence happens.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > I expect the bicameral structure of the brain might be also
>>>> mapped to this ancient system.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > http://www.freemeditationnz.com/our-three-energy-channels.html
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > David Morris
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > On Monday, January 25, 2016, Ian Livingston <
>>>> igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> > > My neuropsych profs were eager to caution that we have now
>>>> reached such a deep understanding of the brain and its functions that we
>>>> can at last say with confidence that we know almost nothing about it.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> > > Yes I read those reviews. What I am finding so far is that the
>>>> book is very careful to build its picture of how the hemispheres work from
>>>> data. Every step of the way, he draws on research and is very careful so
>>>> far not to overreach and to include differing takes on that data. One of
>>>> the things he points out is that brain science is with current technology
>>>> and perhaps will always be a matter of intelligent interpretation since it
>>>> deals with qualities and actions for which quantification makes little
>>>> sense, like empathy, unjustified self confidence, manual grasping behaviors
>>>> etc. Also it is almost impossible to really track the mechanisms involved(
>>>> if they really are of a mechanistic nature) because they take place in a
>>>> living organism. So brain scans give correspondences between activities and
>>>> brain metabolism but not clearly detailed causal relationships. Also many
>>>> mental processes draw on both sides of the brain which he frequently
>>>> reminds the reader.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > Stlll, I think any reader will be surprised and amazed at the
>>>> wealth and specificity of the data and how much can be meaningfully and
>>>> confidently understood about the hemispheric differences. I know I am.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > It is true that he is trying to say something philosophically
>>>> profound and that is always dangerous terrain, though I have not gotten to
>>>> the heart of that part of the text. The question is whether there is enough
>>>> data to support it. So far the data base is so rich that the book cannot
>>>> fail to leave a powerful imprint and sense of enriched understanding for me.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > > On Jan 25, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Paul Mackin <
>>>> mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > > One of a number of favorable reviews, this one glowing.
>>>> However a couple of reviewers according to Wikipedia cautioned against
>>>> culture and psychology conclusions getting too far ahead of hard brain
>>>> science.
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > > http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/jan/02/1
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 6:39 AM, Mark Kohut <
>>>> mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> > > > "You're gonna want your cause and effect, eh?"
>>>> >> > > > Since his first book is entitled Against Criticism, I hope he
>>>> isn't IN GR--
>>>> >> > > > but I'll mic drop in advance. ......
>>>> >> > > > Just a little metajoke there, heh, heh.
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > > On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Joseph Tracy <
>>>> brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>> >> > > > I am currently reading Iain McGilchrist’s The Master and his
>>>> Emissary
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > > One of the most scientifically, psychologically and
>>>> philosophically profound books I have ever read. It really has me reeling
>>>> with information and insight and makes sense of so much that seems
>>>> inscrutable in human history and personal behavior. I came across the title
>>>> and a description with a brief quote while doing research on another book.
>>>> It seemed the more intriguing book so I got it from the library. Will be
>>>> looking for a used copy.
>>>> >> > > > The topic is the roles of the 2 hemispheres of the brain and
>>>> he brings together an unexpected wealth of medical/scientific research,
>>>> both contemprary and historic to build a very powerful picture of the
>>>> nature of each hemisphere, as well as the evolutionary logic of their
>>>> differentiation. Both from the introduction and from some peeks ahead I
>>>> know he has a philosophic intention that argues for a greater balance in
>>>> our cultural biases, and greater awareness of the brain-structure origins
>>>> of those biases.
>>>> >> > > > From a Pynchon reader POV McGilchrist takes on the brain
>>>> structure basis of major themes and historic tendencies that appear
>>>> throughout the body of P’s work. Essentially it is about the division in
>>>> the brain between left hemisphere’s tendency to seek and produce control
>>>> achieved through manipulable units of thought, communication, structure,
>>>> manufacture and the right brain’s holistic, individualistic and socially
>>>> empathic style. ( there is no way to adequadetly summarize this or the
>>>> pages of precise information derived from scientific research). This
>>>> struggle appers in all P books and with profound starkness in Pynchon’s
>>>> essay on CP Snow, and the GR theme of mechanistic control vs nature/pursuit
>>>> of bliss/personal freedom, humane solidarity.
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > > The writer’s background for this book is about as good as
>>>> possible. Professional Psychiatrist specializing in physiological brain
>>>> issues, a researcher in neuro-imaging and an Oxford English teacher 3 times
>>>> elected Fellow at All Souls College. Of equal or greater importance is the
>>>> originality of his brilliance and the humane depth of his quest to
>>>> understand how our brain structure fits into our historic development, and
>>>> his sense that understanding these things might free us to find a better
>>>> way forward.
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > > Has anyone else read it?
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > > 462 pgs of text and over 100 of end notes etc.-
>>>> >> > > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > > >
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > -
>>>> >> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -
>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> >> > - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -
>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > -
>>>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>
>>> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>
>> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
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