NP: David Lynch Reading

[John Bailey]

Boyoboy, you might find some people who disagree with Gardner here...

I know some people who argue that the art and the artist are
categorically distinct, and that the character and biography etc of
the artist has zero bearing on how you should respond to the work. I
get this argument but my gut feeling tends elsewhere.

On the other hand, the "great art makes the artist great" argument
could be used to justify some pretty atrocious behaviour, don't you
think? Or perhaps that's a misleading way of taking it.

Which reminds me: Polanski totally deserves consideration for any
career retrospective list.

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Steven Koteff <steviekoteff at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks so much for all the recommendations, Laura.
>
> The problem with lists is that they're exclusionary I suppose. I don't think
> capital g Greatness is the sole criterion for the list of directors we
> chose. If it were we obviously couldn't have stopped at ten.
>
> I don't doubt Lynch has a big ego although if I'm being honest that doesn't
> bother me at all. As an artist raised on movies the sole reason I didn't get
> into that particular medium is that I can't imagine the difficulty of
> orchestrating so many people who don't share my vision yet whose work is
> crucial to my vision being realized. It seems like big egos correlate with
> great artists in some cases (obviously not all) and it wouldn't surprise me
> at all if that's more true by necessity in film.
>
> John Gardner, in his intro to The Art of Fiction, suggests great art is
> moral and can only be made by moral people. Or good people. Then he
> anticipates the question of how to reconcile that with the obvious fact that
> much great art has been made by people we know to be assholes. He concludes
> that, at least at the moment of creation, the artist becomes a good person.
> Even temporarily. I watched ELEPHANT MAN last night and ERASERHEAD the night
> before. I believe that at some point in the creation of those two movies
> Lynch had to have been a great person. If he has also been an asshole that
> doesn't diminish the work, for me at least.
>
> On Jan 3, 2016, at 3:10 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> <kelber at mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> Are great directors rated solely by ego and/or pretentiousness? Both
> Quarantino and Lynch qualify in that case.
>
> I like my directors entertaining, though I do like Terrence Malick's vision.
> Loved Tree of Life, and I'm looking forward to seeing his new one.
>
> Two names that haven't been mentioned:
>
> Samuel Fuller - his films teeter on the edge of schlock, but for the most
> part, regain their footing, due to his style and viewpoint. Best: Pickup on
> South Street (1953), Underworld U.S.A. (1961) and the amazingly
> lurid/artistic Shock Corrider (1963). A scene from the latter:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpuJaTA7Txk
>
> Val Lewton - a producer, not a director, but the directors did his bidding.
> Best: Cat People (1942), I Walked With a Zombie (1943).
>
> Kubrick, Hitchcock, David Lean and Billy Wilder are my favorites.
>
> What, no women? So few women directors have been able to get the funding and
> backing to make more than 5 feature, narrative movies, it's no wonder they
> don't appear on "great director" lists. Imagine taking a random sampling of
> male directors who've only been able to make 3-5 low budget movies during
> their long careers, and see what you get.
>
> Two who often make those lists I absolutely detest: Lina Wertmuller (ugh!)
> and Sofia Coppola (nepotism at its worst!). I sort of liked the strange,
> in-your-face polemic, One Sings, the Other Doesn't by Agnes Varda, but
> didn't care for Vagabond. I should rewatch it, though. Kathryn Bigelow has
> made 9 features to date, but, aside from Hurt Locker, I'm underwhelmed. Jane
> Campion's probably the best-known of all the directors, but I've only seen
> The Piano (which I liked, but didn't love). Gillian Armstrong is probably
> the most prolific (10 theatrical release narrative features, to date). I
> liked My Brilliant Career, but haven't seen any of her others.
>
> I've been trying to compile a list of best English-language woman-directed
> films, and/or directors to watch. Here's what I have so far:
>
> Best women directors:
>
> I Shot Andy Warhol (1996) – Mary Harron (4 features)
>
> American Psycho (2000)
>
> The Notorious Bettie Page (2005)
>
>
>
> Ratcatcher (1999) – Lynne Ramsay (3 features)
>
> Morvern Callar (2002)
>
> We Need To Talk About Kevin (2011)
>
>
>
> Fish Tank (2009) – Andrea Arnold (4 features)
>
> Wuthering Heights (2011)
>
>
>
> Wendy and Lucy (2008) - Kelly Reichardt – (6 features)
>
> Meek’s Cutoff (2010)
>
>
> Honorable Mention:
>
>
> Frida (2002) - Julie Taymor (5 features). I haven't seen her Shakespeare
> films.
>
>
>
> Orlando (1992) – Sally Potter (7 features) Orlando is worth the watch.
> Potter is very experimental, but most of her experiments fail.
>
>
> Winter’s Bone – (2010) Debra Granik (2 features) This film launched Jennifer
> Lawrence's career, but Granik struggles to get her projects funded.
>
>
>
> Boys Don’t Cry (1999) – Kimberly Peirce (3 features)
>
>
>
> Eve’s Bayou (1997) – Kasi Lemmons (4 features)
>
>
>
> Please Give (2010) - Nicole Holofcener (5 features)
>
>
> Newcomers I'd like to see more from:
>
>
> The Diary of a Teenage Girl (2015) – Marielle Heller (1 feature)
>
>
> It Felt Like Love (2013) – Eliza Hittman (1 feature)
>
>
> Dee Rees shows promise, though I didn't care much for Paraiah.
>
>
> Laura
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Steven Koteff
>
> Sent: Jan 3, 2016 3:22 PM
>
> To: Johnny Marr
>
> Cc: Mark Kohut , Erik Burns , Jemmy Bloocher , John Bailey , P-list ,
> Douglas Holm
>
> Subject: Re: NP: David Lynch Reading
>
>
>
> Ozu, Kurosawa, Varda, Godard, Ray all have multiple entries on the
> non-oeuvre list. A lot of the others mentioned (Sissasoko, Hara, Denis) are
> not quite on my radar but will definitely look into everything mentioned
> here.
> On Jan 3, 2016, at 9:20 AM, Johnny Marr wrote:
>
> How about Ozu for a less Western style of film making (although some of his
> early 1930s films, before he found his definite style, are heavily indebted
> to America)? Also a great way to remember Setsuo Hara - those films can be
> an acquired taste, but you'll instantly recognise the artistic calibre and
> once you gain a feel for Ozu you'll never look back.
> For African cinema, I'd recommend Sissasoko, with Timbuktu a recent career
> high point.
>
> On Sunday, January 3, 2016, Mark Kohut wrote:
> Not Enuff yet.
>
> Sukorov, I'd watch every Sukorov twice.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I meant Rohmer when I wrote Chabrol which shows how much I could
>
>> learn by doing this.
>
>>
>
>> Enuff,
>
>> Cheers
>
>>
>
>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Johnny Marr wrote:
>
>>> The BFI in London have just started a full retrospective of Godard's
>>> work.
>
>>> Last year they treated us to (among others) Rohmer, Welles, Tarkovsky and
>
>>> Hou Hsiao-Hsien, all stunning.
>
>>>
>
>>> One of the big American film institutions recently programmed a joint
>>> David
>
>>> Lynch/Jacques Rivette season (I think curated by Dennis Lim) which must
>>> have
>
>>> been extraordinary.
>
>>>
>
>>> I'm a Bresson devotee, although I don't think all of his work is easy to
>
>>> obtain. Dreyer as well, especially if you want to explore early cinema.
>
>>>
>
>>> Best female directors for a career retrospective would probably be
>>> Akerman
>
>>> (hugely difficult to obtain, ICA in London staged a career retrospective
>
>>> over the course of two and a half years), Varda or Claire Denis.
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> On Sunday, January 3, 2016, Erik Burns wrote:
>
>>>>
>
>>>> I'd add John Sayles. And Alex Cox.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> ________________________________
>
>>>> From: Jemmy Bloocher
>
>>>> Sent: ‎1/‎3/‎2016 10:36
>
>>>> To: Mark Kohut
>
>>>> Cc: Steven Koteff; John Bailey; P-list; Douglas Holm
>
>>>> Subject: Re: NP: David Lynch Reading
>
>>>>
>
>>>> To go with Allen, Whit Stillman?
>
>>>>
>
>>>> I also loved Wim Wenders circa Paris, Texas. I've only seen Wong's
>
>>>> Chungking Express (loved it) so unsure of his stinkers (unless that is
>>>> one
>
>>>> and I'm way off-base).
>
>>>>
>
>>>> On 3 Jan 2016 10:14, "Mark Kohut" wrote:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> How 'bout one great documentarian? Reality bites.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 4:40 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>
>>>>> > Misc. Next volume of Callow's Welles is coming out this year.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > Women: consider Agnes Varda. And, yes, Jane Campion. Ida Lupino's
>
>>>>> > couple--three films?
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > So, Allen is your weak choice to contrast? Like having to have
>
>>>>> > informed opinions about Hitchcock?
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > No Godard? THE one I would commit to were I to commit.
>
>>>>> > Along with Ray, and/or Ozu. And Kurosawa . And, yes, Linklater. And
>
>>>>> > Kiarostrami. And Lee.
>
>>>>> > All white guys and girls---
>
>>>>> > talking about myself here---should see more Lee. imho.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > How about placing a guy like Ken Loach in context? How much art, how
>
>>>>> > much cause and sociology?
>
>>>>> > Remember AMERICA unfolds w studio genre creations, if America seen is
>
>>>>> > a subgoal.(which it isn't, i just reread)
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > No Truffaut? And I'd watch Chabrol over Melville. But that's me.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > In the circles, I have circled, I have needed my strong opinions
>>>>> > about
>
>>>>> > Hitchcock. Perhaps
>
>>>>> > We all do.
>
>>>>> > Your list is, of course, a high-minded one. Wilsonian ( per recent
>
>>>>> > post). Kind I like
>
>>>>> > But not most folk...but this is the plist.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > Watch some bad movies too. Just sayin'.
>
>>>>> > Then there are the Royal Shakespeare Company productions of
>
>>>>> > Shakespeare. (joke, sorta) which I may do.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > Do a book--blog first? Our Year of Watching Movies. (or Film, first
>
>>>>> > discussion) New trend in books.
>
>>>>> > and I'm not prescribing with anything above, just projecting my own
>
>>>>> > self, mostly.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > Except I am saying if you are anywhere near NYC's Film Forum you MUST
>
>>>>> > SEE Chimes at Midnight, one of the greatest
>
>>>>> > movies ever made, in ownership dispute limbo for a long time and if
>>>>> > it
>
>>>>> > now plays elsewhere, just go.
>
>>>>> > Still my fave Shakespeare film and Welles.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > And, more topically, see The Big Short and Spotlight while they are
>
>>>>> > "in the conversation", as well as Lee.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > Back to reading I go. Up against movies, reading's through unless we
>
>>>>> > keep it alive.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > my answer re Malick. No, he answers Christian apologetics in ways
>
>>>>> > Heidegger did, whom he studied or wrote a
>
>>>>> > diss on or whatever...
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > Some of your directors offer a nice chance to explore the 'ideas' vs.
>
>>>>> > 'life' in art question.
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> > Sent from my iPadudio
>
>>>>> >
>
>>>>> >> On Jan 2, 2016, at 10:33 PM, John Bailey wrote:
>
>>>>> >>
>
>>>>> >> Geez, Herzog will keep you busy. But Aguirre and Fitzcarraldo,
>
>>>>> >> absolutely unforgettable.
>
>>>>> >>
>
>>>>> >> Will you be viewing each oeuvre chronologically?
>
>>>>> >>
>
>>>>> >> Women I can think of that might make it onto a similar list would be
>
>>>>> >> Claire Denis, Kathryn Bigelow (big contrast across her career), Jane
>
>>>>> >> Campion, Chantal Akerman (RIP).
>
>>>>> >>
>
>>>>> >>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Douglas Holm wrote:
>
>>>>> >>> What a great list!!!
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> I forgot Herzog, though I don't like him all that much, but he is
>
>>>>> >>> significant as a genre bender.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> Corns, of course.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> Mallick is interesting but more for his influence (Revenant) than
>>>>> >>> his
>
>>>>> >>> achievement ... Is he a Christian apologist? I can't tell, but it's
>
>>>>> >>> an
>
>>>>> >>> interesting discussion.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> I love Linklater ... Almost put him on the list, but didn't think
>>>>> >>> of
>
>>>>> >>> him
>
>>>>> >>> until after "send " .... Great subject for further research.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> I've been wanting to get into Barhrani since Ebert went out on a
>>>>> >>> limb
>
>>>>> >>> for
>
>>>>> >>> him after his first film a decade ago.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> Great list!!!
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> On Jan 2, 2016, at 6:49 PM, Steven Koteff
>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> Thanks so much for all the input so far. Definitely going to buy
>>>>> >>> the
>
>>>>> >>> Lynch
>
>>>>> >>> on Lynch and will probably get the Lim book, too.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> We made the list on New Year's Eve, and it took several hours to
>>>>> >>> do,
>
>>>>> >>> and was
>
>>>>> >>> great fun. Lots of arguments, diplomatic choices, etc. Like our own
>
>>>>> >>> little
>
>>>>> >>> climate talks.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> We ended up making choices that were some balance between directors
>
>>>>> >>> we were
>
>>>>> >>> interested in seeing for ourselves, directors we wanted the other
>
>>>>> >>> person to
>
>>>>> >>> see, and directors that felt uniquely important (or at least
>>>>> >>> unique).
>
>>>>> >>> I
>
>>>>> >>> consider myself almost shockingly overschooled in post-1980
>>>>> >>> American
>
>>>>> >>> cinema
>
>>>>> >>> and really underschooled in pre-1980 American cinema plus most
>
>>>>> >>> non-American
>
>>>>> >>> stuff. There's not quite as much stuff on there that will fill
>>>>> >>> those
>
>>>>> >>> gaps as
>
>>>>> >>> I'd like, which we are addressing in two ways:
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> One is that we are acknowledging we will just have to leave a few
>
>>>>> >>> until
>
>>>>> >>> 2017.
>
>>>>> >>> Two is that we have an addendum list of directors with one or
>>>>> >>> several
>
>>>>> >>> movies
>
>>>>> >>> we consider important to see, but who we are not totally committing
>
>>>>> >>> to this
>
>>>>> >>> year. E.g. The Seventh Seal is on the list, but Bergman's entire
>
>>>>> >>> ouevre is
>
>>>>> >>> not (maybe in 2017).
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> Here's the list of we ended up with:
>
>>>>> >>> Lynch
>
>>>>> >>> Kubrick
>
>>>>> >>> Herzog
>
>>>>> >>> Todd Solondz
>
>>>>> >>> Coen Bros.
>
>>>>> >>> John Waters
>
>>>>> >>> Terrence Malick
>
>>>>> >>> Linklater
>
>>>>> >>> Ramin Bahrani
>
>>>>> >>> Woody Allen
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> Some of the choices are matters of convenience. Bahrani is young
>>>>> >>> and
>
>>>>> >>> unique,
>
>>>>> >>> worth seeing in his own right (as I insisted) but also only has a
>>>>> >>> few
>
>>>>> >>> movies
>
>>>>> >>> out, which counterbalances Allen/Herzog nicely.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> Longlist included, off the top of my head: Gilliam, Ray, Bergman,
>
>>>>> >>> Fellini,
>
>>>>> >>> Welles, Spike Lee, Aronofsky, buncha others.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>> Definitely lots of glaring omissions. It obviously skews
>
>>>>> >>> contemporary,
>
>>>>> >>> American, white. No women on the list, which is really kind of
>
>>>>> >>> unforgivable.
>
>>>>> >>> We had Sofia Coppola and a few others on the long list. If anybody
>
>>>>> >>> has any
>
>>>>> >>> recommendations to that end I'd be very interested.
>
>>>>> >>>
>
>>>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Douglas Holm wrote:
>
>>>>> >>>>
>
>>>>> >>>> All the Mississippi interview books and the Faber and Faber books
>
>>>>> >>>> are a
>
>>>>> >>>> good mix of biography and aesthetics.
>
>>>>> >>>>
>
>>>>> >>>> Suggested directors for your project could include:
>
>>>>> >>>>
>
>>>>> >>>> Fincher
>
>>>>> >>>> Hitchcock
>
>>>>> >>>> Sophia Coppola
>
>>>>> >>>> Wes and PT Anderson
>
>>>>> >>>> Tarantino (lots of books on him ... I did two of them)
>
>>>>> >>>> Jill Sprecher
>
>>>>> >>>> Ophuls
>
>>>>> >>>> Nick Ray
>
>>>>> >>>> Sam Fuller
>
>>>>> >>>> Renoir
>
>>>>> >>>> Truffaut
>
>>>>> >>>> Melville
>
>>>>> >>>> Kurosawa
>
>>>>> >>>> Mizoguchi
>
>>>>> >>>> Tarkovsky
>
>>>>> >>>> Bergman
>
>>>>> >>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>> On Jan 2, 2016, at 4:54 PM, Douglas Holm wrote:
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>> There's a new book by Dennis Lim, late of the Village Voice.
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> http://www.amazon.com/David-Lynch-Another-Place-Icons/dp/0544343751
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 2, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Steven Koteff
>
>>>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>> A month or two ago I asked if anybody could recommend a Kubrick
>
>>>>> >>>>>> bio and
>
>>>>> >>>>>> you guys were all helpful (went with the Lobrutto, Mark T's
>>>>> >>>>>> rec).
>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>> I'm no wondering if anybody has a particular book (or books) on
>
>>>>> >>>>>> Lynch
>
>>>>> >>>>>> to recommend. Biography is desired. If the writer is insightful
>
>>>>> >>>>>> about
>
>>>>> >>>>>> Lynch's work that'd be a plus but I guess I'm a bit more
>
>>>>> >>>>>> interested in Lynch
>
>>>>> >>>>>> the guy, as person and artist. Want insight into what made the
>>>>> >>>>>> guy
>
>>>>> >>>>>> make the
>
>>>>> >>>>>> work.
>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>> My girlfriend and I made a list of ten directors whose work we
>
>>>>> >>>>>> want to
>
>>>>> >>>>>> see all of, in order, before 2017. We're starting with Lynch.
>
>>>>> >>>>>> Ideally I'd
>
>>>>> >>>>>> like to read up on each director while we are watching his/her
>
>>>>> >>>>>> stuff so I
>
>>>>> >>>>>> will be checking back in.
>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>
>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks in advance. -
>
>>>>> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
>>>>> >>>>> -
>
>>>>> >>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
>>>>> >> -
>
>>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
>>>>> -
>
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l