GR - How old is Bianca? Or: Did Sachsa really die in 1930?

Thu Jan 7 16:55:00 CST 2016

So, to recover his humanity maybe?
Again,
P's fulcrum of ambiguity as possible meanings.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 5:46 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Or simply opts out, like Bartleby or Leary. The boycott is one of the few
> tools in the belt of the preterite.
>
> Laura
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Keith Davis
>>Sent: Jan 7, 2016 7:20 AM
>>To: Mark Kohut
>>Cc: kelber , pynchon -l
>>Subject: Re: GR - How old is Bianca? Or: Did Sachsa really die in 1930?
>>
>>Loses his humanity, or transcends it? Like Cyprian?
>>
>>Www.innergroovemusic.com
>>
>>> On Jan 7, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>>>
>>> I think we---I---must rethink Slothrop. I knew, ( or figured I knew)
>>> first read, no one got laid that much by willing adult British girls,
>>> so I rendered him
>>> symbolic as much as related to reality. Even first read, we all knew
>>> this novel wasn't 'realistic' in any normal meaning of that term.
>>>
>>> We know he is damaged, poignantly so and sympathetically in the novel
>>> (in some ways). Now, maybe more totally than I have admitted.
>>>
>>> Being one with one's own cock is NOT a positive thing in a novel
>>> in which Norman O. Brown's Life against Death and a 'polymorphous
>>> perversity' are deep influences, but I might not have thought that
>>> until later readings and awareness of the influence. (see below on
>>> alternate title, though)
>>>
>>> For what it is worth, as I've mentioned, I had read Lolita and Life
>>> Against Death before I read GR (not that I connected Brown much)
>>> but I did believe, want to believe, that Pynchon had a deeper perspective
>>> on 'free love'---if that is what we can call Slothrop's luck with willing
>>> women.
>>>
>>> When I first heard of the alternate title, Mindless Pleasures I WAS SURE
>>> it satirized Slothrop as much as anything in the novel.
>>>
>>> So, I still think Pynchon is being more Swiftian than I have thought,
>>> with Bianca.
>>> I still think P was ABSOLUTELY aware this fictional creation was another
>>> symbol of sick sex such as the novel is full of, as much, because, he
>>> was a victim.
>>> Another turn of the base fantasy
>>> sex life in the West screw, so to pun. (Sometimes acted upon IRL).
>>>
>>> Maybe another reason he disappears? that is, loses his humanity, so to
>>> speak?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:26 PM, wrote:
>>>> I do think that the reader's mind rebels against thinking that our
>>>> good-guy would have sex with a 12-year-old. We can handle it only by
>>>> equivocating "she's really older, she just looks 11 or 12 to Slothrop" (not
>>>> much of a mitigation, as many have pointed out); or by putting a
>>>> metaphorical or magical realism spin on it (I think that's what I did the
>>>> first time I read it); or by proving that she's older and that Slothrop must
>>>> secretly realize that she's older, and be playing along.
>>>>
>>>> My first reaction when I read it was that this was a damaged child
>>>> (Slothrop, via Imipolex) inflicting damage on another damaged child - a kind
>>>> of cascading fallout. And that the scene was somehow pre-invisioning, just
>>>> as his Imipolex-sensitized penis anticipated where the V2s would fall, the
>>>> later event of Gottfried with his Imipolex shroud, trapped in the rocket
>>>> (which foreshadows the Cold War terror of nuclear weapons falling on us,
>>>> damaging our genetic and planetary future).
>>>>
>>>> But I can also imagine that to Pynchon, in his early 20s, back in the
>>>> early 1970s, before fatherhood was anywhere close to being a gleam in his
>>>> eye, the horrors of child abuse were much more theoretical and somewhat less
>>>> horrific than they would appear to him in the present day, at his current
>>>> age. And I can go a step further and ponder the unspeakable and unknowable -
>>>> whether Pynchon has a secret kink or predilection for underaged girls (along
>>>> with Lewis Carroll, Salinger, Woody Allen, and Polanski, to name just a
>>>> few). I'm able to separate the artist from the creep or ghoul, though many
>>>> are not.
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Mark Kohut
>>>>> Sent: Jan 6, 2016 5:13 PM
>>>>> To: kelber
>>>>> Cc: pynchon -l
>>>>> Subject: Re: GR - How old is Bianca? Or: Did Sachsa really die in 1930?
>>>>>
>>>>> wow...an analysis to go deep into....I will
>>>>>
>>>>> BUT, I will just say that even the first time I read it, I did think
>>>>> Slothrop was "only" saying she 'looked' that age.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I had read Lolita first....and I did not want to believe the 'good
>>>>> guy'
>>>>> Slothrop was a pedophile.....I did think P wanted to present this
>>>>> sickness
>>>>> in this way-----males wanted often much younger women.....I could not
>>>>> buy it as realistic therefore, of course, long before I had heard of
>>>>> hysterical or magical realism..
>>>>>
>>>>> but I must reread and think more...
>>>>>
>>>>> Just sayin'
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:40 PM, wrote:
>>>>>> I've been trying to parse this since that Nabokov discussion
>>>>>> couple-three
>>>>>> weeks ago. I'm using my Penguin 2006 version page numbers, but the
>>>>>> PynchonWiki uses a different version (Vintage, I think):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During my readings of GR, I've always taken it at face value that
>>>>>> Bianca is
>>>>>> 11 or 12 when Slothrop has sex with her: "He gets a glimpse of
>>>>>> Margherita
>>>>>> and her daughter, but there is a density of orgy-goers around them
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> keeps him at a distance. He knows he's vulnerable, more than he should
>>>>>> be,
>>>>>> to pretty little girls, so he reckons it's just as well, because that
>>>>>> Bianca's a knockout, all right: 11 or 12, dark and lovely …" [Penguin,
>>>>>> p.
>>>>>> 470-471].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But John Krafft makes this argument (see PynchonWiki):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://gravitys-rainbow.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bianca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How old IS Bianca?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Slothrop thinks, "Bianca's a knockout, alright: 11 or 12, dark and
>>>>>> lovely
>>>>>> [...]" (p.463), but how old is Bianca, really? Well ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bianca is conceived during the filming of Alpdrücken ("I think Bianca
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> [Schlepzig's] child. She was conceived while we were filming this." -
>>>>>> p.395)
>>>>>> Ilse was conceived after Franz Pökler saw Alpdrücken ("he knew that
>>>>>> had to
>>>>>> be the night, Alpdrücken night, that Ilse was conceived." - p.397)
>>>>>> Leni had already given birth to Ilse when she was seeing Peter Sachsa,
>>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>> "Ilse is awake, and crying. [...] They ought to try Peter after all.
>>>>>> He'll
>>>>>> have milk." (p.163); and Sachsa is killed during a street action in
>>>>>> 1930
>>>>>> ("Taken forcibly over in 1930 by a blow from a police truncheon [...]"
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> p.152)
>>>>>> Placing Bianca's conception, say, 6 months to a year before Ilse's
>>>>>> (depending on how long it took for Alpdrücken to reach the theatres
>>>>>> and how
>>>>>> long it took Franz Pökler to go see it), Bianca's birth would have
>>>>>> been in
>>>>>> 1928 or 1929.
>>>>>> Slothrop meets Bianca aboard the Anubis in 1945.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thus Bianca must be 16 or 17, yes? (Thanks to John M. Krafft and to
>>>>>> Bernard
>>>>>> Duyfhuizen, of Pynchon Notes, for the above sleuthing.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a clear sequence of events: Bianca conceived, then Ilse is
>>>>>> conceived, then, when Ilse is at least a year or so old, Peter Sachsa
>>>>>> dies.
>>>>>> And, in a book that doesn't have too many direct references to the
>>>>>> date (in
>>>>>> favor of indirect references via historical events like Hirohsima,
>>>>>> etc.),
>>>>>> we're given the date of his death: 1930. Case closed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are some of my objections to Krafft's time-line:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Pynchon's intentions with the Slothrop-Bianca sequence: To me, this
>>>>>> sequence seems very much about Slothrop, pushing 30 [Penguin, p. 471]
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> sex with a very underage girl. She looks to him as if she's 11 or 12.
>>>>>> Does
>>>>>> Pynchon expect the reader to parse through the book, come up with the
>>>>>> above-mentioned time line and think, "Ah, silly Slothrop, you're not
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> creep you think you are for lusting after such a little girl. She's
>>>>>> actually
>>>>>> 16 or 17."? If Bianca is 16 or 17, the ( or "a" ) subtext of the scene
>>>>>> would be Slothrop thinking he's having sex with a much-younger girl,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> Slothrop and Bianca role-playing that she's a much-younger girl. This
>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>> impossible. Earlier, at the beginning of the orgy sequence, Margherita
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Bianca are role-playing that she's a Shirley Temple-aged tot who
>>>>>> deserves a
>>>>>> good spanking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it just seems unlikely to me that Pynchon would expect the reader
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> read the text this way - certainly not at first reading, anyway. So he
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> have, at minimum, been aware that readers would take the 11 or 12 age
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>> given. Other evidence: Stefania, described as "maybe 18" says: "While
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> were away, they left Bianca with us, at Bydgoszcz. She has her bitchy
>>>>>> moments, but she's really a charming child." [Penguin, p. 469].
>>>>>> Doesn't
>>>>>> sound like she's discussing a girl near her own age.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the next section, when the sex scene occurs, Slothrop is dreaming
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> White Rabbit from Alice in Wonderland. A possible reference to Lewis
>>>>>> Carroll's alleged infatuation with Alice Liddell? Carroll broke
>>>>>> abruptly
>>>>>> with the Liddell family when Alice was 11. And, of course, there's
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> possible connection to 12-year-old Lolita.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On p. 477, Bianca's breasts are described as "pre-subdeb." The
>>>>>> Sub-debs were
>>>>>> some sort of sorority for high-school girls back in the day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also: OK, a whole stream of thought: Margherita the child-murderer
>>>>>> whom
>>>>>> Bianca must be protected from; Imipolex and Margherita, Imipolex and
>>>>>> Weissmann, Imipolex and Slothrop, Imipolex and Gottfried; Pokler,
>>>>>> never sure
>>>>>> of his daughter Ilse, but fantasizing about sex with her; Bianca and
>>>>>> Ilse,
>>>>>> their conceptions linked; Gottfried in the rocket, Slothrop inside his
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> cock while having sex with Bianca ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So many chemical-rocket-abused kids connections. There are I simply
>>>>>> can't
>>>>>> believe that Pynchon expects us to think that Bianca is really 16 or
>>>>>> 17.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. But damned, there is that 1930 date! Another time discrepancy:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Franz Pokler meets Mondaugen (Penguin, p. 164) right after observing a
>>>>>> failed rocket test. This sequence starts two pages earlier. Leni is
>>>>>> pregnant
>>>>>> with Ilse. Franz is earning a living doing odd jobs, and on this day
>>>>>> he's
>>>>>> been pasting movie posters on walls (for a Max Schlepzig film). On the
>>>>>> next
>>>>>> page, he's wandered into the Reinickendorf neighborhood, where he then
>>>>>> observes a failed rocket test, after which he looks up and sees
>>>>>> Mondaugen
>>>>>> (whom he went to technical college - Technische Hochschule - with 7 or
>>>>>> 8
>>>>>> years earlier).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's the description of the static rocket test: "But the light grew
>>>>>> brighter, and the watching figures suddenly started dropping for cover
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> the rocket now gave a sputtering roar, a long burst, voices screaming
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> down and he hit the dirt just as the silver thing blew apart …"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This had to be based on this incident, the static test of a Mirak
>>>>>> rocket at
>>>>>> the Reinickendorf facility in May, 1931:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "In May 1931 Riedel improvised a rocket, using the thrust chamber
>>>>>> developed
>>>>>> for the Mirak, fed by two long tanks containing liquid oxygen and
>>>>>> gasoline,
>>>>>> which would form guiding sticks for the forward-mounted engine. The
>>>>>> lashed-together rocket rises to 20 m on its first 'static' test. On 14
>>>>>> May a
>>>>>> flight-weight version of Riedel's 'flying test stand' takes off into a
>>>>>> looping trajectory, sending the VfR experimenters running for cover,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> reaching 60 m altitude in the process."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/mirak.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By this reckoning, Ilse is born in 1931, after Sachsa's death. This
>>>>>> birth
>>>>>> date, assuming she was conceived months (at minimum) after Bianca,
>>>>>> still
>>>>>> makes Bianca about 14 years old at the time Slothrop has sex with her.
>>>>>> So is
>>>>>> Sachsa alive or dead when Ilse is born? Is Pynchon positing a
>>>>>> fictional
>>>>>> rocket test that took place in 1929 or so? Possibly. But Pynchon
>>>>>> really did
>>>>>> his homework on the history of the German rocket program (before and
>>>>>> after
>>>>>> the Nazis took over). Would he really torture his carefully-researched
>>>>>> facts
>>>>>> just to fit them to Sachsa's 1930 death? There's absolutely no
>>>>>> significant
>>>>>> reason that I can find that Sachsa needs to have died in 1930. Could
>>>>>> Pynchon
>>>>>> have made a careless mistake? Or maybe Sachsa didn't actually die in
>>>>>> 1930?
>>>>>> He's introduced as a ghost-medium during the 1945 seance [Penguin, p.
>>>>>> 154],
>>>>>> and is described as having been "forcibly taken over in 1930 by a blow
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> a police truncheon." Could "taken over" mean that he gained his
>>>>>> insights
>>>>>> into the "other side."? He was leading seances when Leni and baby Ilse
>>>>>> visited him. It's pretty hard to read anything other than death in the
>>>>>> words
>>>>>> "taken over," given the context. Again, could Pynchon have been
>>>>>> careless
>>>>>> with the choice of 1930? Hard to know what to think here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Other stray points: Pokler never sure if the girl he's with is
>>>>>> Ilse.
>>>>>> Could Margherita be abducting, procuring various incarnations of
>>>>>> Bianca?
>>>>>> We're told that Bianca was conceived during the filming of Alpdrucken.
>>>>>> Was
>>>>>> this some sort of mental conception in Margherita's head - the "idea"
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Bianca was born, and she went on to procure Biancas? Grasping at
>>>>>> straws
>>>>>> here. Stefania doesn't believe Bianca even has a father. "I doubt she
>>>>>> had a
>>>>>> father. It was parthenogenesis, she's pure Margherita, if pure is the
>>>>>> word I
>>>>>> want." [ Penguin, p. 469]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is Pynchon just playing around with Time? I'd believe it if this were
>>>>>> ATD.
>>>>>> But the space-time continuum isn't in play in GR, which is very much
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> Newtonian physics, or, at least, standard engineering formulae.
>>>>>> Correct me
>>>>>> if there's evidence to the contrary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (pardon my laziness in adding the required umlauts)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>-
>>Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
-
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