Mortality & Mercy in Vienna

[John Bailey]

Oh shit, he does! I didn't even register that (I shouldn't post
straight after getting up in the morning).

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 5:57 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
> I see, and thanks again. But I would say that's a bit strained from Tanner's
> side. Regarding names, does he really write "Irving Siegel"?
>
> 2016-01-11 7:24 GMT+01:00 John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>:
>>
>> At college they call Siegel 'Stephen' due to his bumpy relationship
>> with Catholicism, which Tanner takes to be a Joyce reference.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:51 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > John – thanks for the Tanner!
>> >
>> > Too much rain? I don't know about that. The rain is outside, and once
>> > Siegel
>> > is inside only mentioned once more, that it has dwindled to a light
>> > mist. I
>> > cannot see an effort to use rain brillantly like Hemingway or Eliot.
>> > Perhaps
>> > it adds to the claustrophobic setting.
>> >
>> > The allusion to Measure for Measure contains more than saying "he's one
>> > of
>> > the greats". Joyce?
>> >
>> > 2016-01-11 2:35 GMT+01:00 Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> " too much rain" is a great way to put it. That's the immaturity as a
>> >> writer.
>> >> But, just to say: the smart-ass tone comes back in works that work, I
>> >> would say, don't you think.
>> >> Smugness too, yes, esp for such a theme.
>> >> But, just to say, later works do expose the author's attitudes a lot.
>> >> But
>> >> here his " attitude"
>> >> Is pretty damn bad---nihilistic attitudes must contain stuff as big as
>> >> WW2.
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPad
>> >>
>> >> On Jan 10, 2016, at 8:08 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Very well put!
>> >>
>> >> On 11 Jan 2016 11:57 am, "ish mailian" <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> The story suffers from all the weaknesses Pynchon points out in his SL
>> >>> Introduction to the shorts he re-published in that book. Like the
>> >>> Small
>> >>> Rain, this story suffers under the cloud of too much rain, rain that
>> >>> is
>> >>> supposed to do something that Hemingway or Eliot did brilliantly, but
>> >>> young
>> >>> P doesn't really know what those great authors did with the rain and
>> >>> so he
>> >>> doesn't even know how how to copy them. It's the smart ass tone that's
>> >>> most
>> >>> embarrassing and although P admits to his juvenile and proto-fascist
>> >>> attitudes toward Others, including women, this story, because like The
>> >>> Small
>> >>> Rain, features a narrative that is essentially the author, and
>> >>> exposes,
>> >>> without irony or distance the author's attitudes, his smugness and
>> >>> immaturity, is a good one to omit from the collection.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 7:30 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It feels like an undergrad story because the engagement with the
>> >>>> intertexts seems so superficial. "I've read Conrad and Joyce and
>> >>>> Shakespeare! They're the greats, right?" Later on he does really
>> >>>> complex and fascinating stuff with allusions and referents but he's
>> >>>> only just starting down that track, here.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> > One question is How much of the play and the line matters to the
>> >>>> > story. Mackin has reminded
>> >>>> > That TRP has said he only uses as little as he needs; Jochen points
>> >>>> > right to the major meaning of the line, used when the Duke turns
>> >>>> > over Vienna
>> >>>> > to Angelo.   DC is as corrupt as Vienna.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > MfM plot is different. In detail. Thematically?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > We 've got to account for the anti-religion, anti-Christian
>> >>>> > religion
>> >>>> > in this story. Pervades. Some Interpreters of MfM have spoken of
>> >>>> > Shakespeare's almost-sacrilegious anti-Christianity. all "
>> >>>> > Christian" values
>> >>>> > gone from Vienna. No Christian cultural values ala Eliot.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > What about sex/love? Rachel doesn't show to the party. But they
>> >>>> > talk
>> >>>> > okay. The woman on the Ojibway's lap?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Nihilistic terrorism because God, all values, even native ones,
>> >>>> > gone,
>> >>>> > dead in the entropic wasteland--that party? Metaphorically
>> >>>> > speaking--ending
>> >>>> > in the shooting as complicit Siegel gets away?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >> On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:37 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Tanner:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "The problem, in both works, is how do you - can you, can anyone?
>> >>>> >> -
>> >>>> >> cure or heal a degenerate and, as it were, 'damned' society?...
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The possibility of any real healing and prophecy recurs throughout
>> >>>> >> Pynchon. More generally, the problem becomes nothing less than how
>> >>>> >> to
>> >>>> >> be in the contemporary world, particularly if it is as infernal as
>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>> >> Washington party implies. One way is to cultivate disengagement,
>> >>>> >> emotional immunity; keeping 'cool', to use a term deployed by
>> >>>> >> Pynchon.
>> >>>> >> But that, of course, can lead to paralysis and inhumanity. The
>> >>>> >> other
>> >>>> >> extreme is to want to be a great healer and prophet, but that can
>> >>>> >> lead
>> >>>> >> to a different kind of inhumanity - and madness. Pynchon's work is
>> >>>> >> constantly seeking to discover something in between these two
>> >>>> >> extremes....
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Irving Siegel is not just an example of a failed healer, a false
>> >>>> >> prophet. He is both a product and a representative of a society
>> >>>> >> that
>> >>>> >> has accepted - indeed, eagerly embraced - 'mortality' on an
>> >>>> >> ever-increasing scale, and has forgotten the 'mercy'."
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I can see why Pynchon might not have wanted to include M&M in Slow
>> >>>> >> Learner. Casting the native American as a murderous cannibal is
>> >>>> >> lame,
>> >>>> >> and the "kill 'em all" sentiment underriding the narrative is a
>> >>>> >> cop-out for the Pynchon who connects one's literary approach to
>> >>>> >> death
>> >>>> >> as a marker of maturity (and in whose works characters die very,
>> >>>> >> very
>> >>>> >> infrequently).
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Mark Kohut
>> >>>> >>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> >>> yes, very worryingly claustrophobic.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> I have been trying to write something that says other than your
>> >>>> >>> other
>> >>>> >>> critical voice. My mind stops there, except to think it can't
>> >>>> >>> mean
>> >>>> >>> that, can it? I might suggest it shows the nihilism of said
>> >>>> >>> liberalism, and of native American revenge (justice) as well?
>> >>>> >>> The complicity of them, of the native and the liberal bureaucrat.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> I want to reread Measure for Measure before saying more. It IS
>> >>>> >>> claustrophobic and even the resolution contains bad shit.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> I have both Tanner books but still in boxes since recent move.
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Jochen Stremmel
>> >>>> >>>> <jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >>>> Significantly, Tony Tanner begins his preface for Measure for
>> >>>> >>>> Measure with
>> >>>> >>>> the sentence: "This is a worryingly claustrophobic play." Is
>> >>>> >>>> that
>> >>>> >>>> not true
>> >>>> >>>> for Pynchon's short story as well? He then muses about the word
>> >>>> >>>> "circummured" that Shakespeare invented for this play and never
>> >>>> >>>> used again.
>> >>>> >>>>
>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps somebody who reads this post has Tanner's book about
>> >>>> >>>> Pynchon at
>> >>>> >>>> hand: Apparently he deals on the pages 26-29 with M&M in Vienna.
>> >>>> >>>>
>> >>>> >>>> Meanwhile here's another critical voice:
>> >>>> >>>>
>> >>>> >>>> "Any political critique of Pynchon should begin there: the
>> >>>> >>>> shrugging off of
>> >>>> >>>> murder. ... The poignancy of 'Mortality and mercy in Vienna' is
>> >>>> >>>> revealed in
>> >>>> >>>> that shrug, which is the real centre to the story. It indexes
>> >>>> >>>> perfectly an
>> >>>> >>>> inability and unwillingness to intervene in a world in which
>> >>>> >>>> mercy
>> >>>> >>>> and
>> >>>> >>>> mortality appear inseparable. and terrorism a kind of
>> >>>> >>>> unfathomable
>> >>>> >>>> justice.
>> >>>> >>>> The shrug shows up the fine limits of Pynchon's story at the
>> >>>> >>>> same
>> >>>> >>>> time as
>> >>>> >>>> revealing the moment (so often repeated in recent American
>> >>>> >>>> history)
>> >>>> >>>> when
>> >>>> >>>> America's confused liberalism emerges as scandalously
>> >>>> >>>> self-conscious
>> >>>> >>>> indifference."
>> >>>> >>>>
>> >>>> >>>> Terrorism a kind of unfathomable justice, indeed.
>> >>>> >>>>
>> >>>> >>>> 2016-01-09 9:22 GMT+01:00 Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>:
>> >>>> >>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>> You said that now at lest twice, David. The high schooler who
>> >>>> >>>>> can
>> >>>> >>>>> put out
>> >>>> >>>>> sth like Mortality and Mercy would have a bright future as a
>> >>>> >>>>> writer, I
>> >>>> >>>>> think. And I don't think it has much morality. I think it's
>> >>>> >>>>> better
>> >>>> >>>>> than
>> >>>> >>>>> Entropy, that one is really charged with symbols. You all know
>> >>>> >>>>> the
>> >>>> >>>>> scene
>> >>>> >>>>> where the parting Duke delegates his power to Angelo with those
>> >>>> >>>>> words, it's
>> >>>> >>>>> the first. And Siegel is no hypocrite – what he does, given the
>> >>>> >>>>> choice
>> >>>> >>>>> between M&M, is quite cool, don't you think.
>> >>>> >>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>> What I thought after Slow Learner came out: that P didn't
>> >>>> >>>>> republish that
>> >>>> >>>>> short story because he didn't like to see that name again,
>> >>>> >>>>> associated with
>> >>>> >>>>> his own, the name of that asshole who broke the silence about
>> >>>> >>>>> him.
>> >>>> >>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>> 2016-01-09 2:00 GMT+01:00 David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>:
>> >>>> >>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>> Too much morality for my taste, and so clunky to boot!  This
>> >>>> >>>>>> feels like
>> >>>> >>>>>> it was written by a high schooler.
>> >>>> >>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, January 8, 2016, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>> The more I 'analyze' this story, the more problematic it is
>> >>>> >>>>>>> to
>> >>>> >>>>>>> me.
>> >>>> >>>>>>> Some over the top
>> >>>> >>>>>>> symbols and allusions and symbolic motivation I don't think I
>> >>>> >>>>>>> get.....
>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>> Yes, the motivation does not seem 'earned', right?....but wha
>> >>>> >>>>>>> is
>> >>>> >>>>>>> it?
>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>> Siegel is Mercy?....the Ojibway is Mortality? .......I cannot
>> >>>> >>>>>>> think the influence of the play into this story.......so
>> >>>> >>>>>>> different..
>> >>>> >>>>>>> ---- Vienna is absolutely corrupt, known.......and I guess DC
>> >>>> >>>>>>> is
>> >>>> >>>>>>> supposed to be too.....
>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Mark Kohut
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.pynchon.pomona.edu/uncollected/vienna.html
>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Starts in rain. (see Small Rain and P on that symbolism
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> borrowed from
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Hem)
>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> a party. like Entropy.
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> music   like Entropy
>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> girl named Rachel. Like V. Who doesn't show.(absent)
>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Zeit [Time] as in V. a doctor here.
>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> P-like crazy names.
>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> very overt Catholicism imagery. and a mother who refutes it
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> at
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> 19.
>> >>>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>> >>>>>>>> what else?
>> >>>> >>>>>>> -
>> >>>> >>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>>> >>> -
>> >>>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>>> -
>> >>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >
>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l