Mortality & Mercy in Vienna

[kelber at mindspring.com]

Thanks for the pithy comments on COL49, Mark. I'm in the camp that thinks it's among Pynchon's best. Just because of its short length, it's probably over-represented on syllabi (no proof of this, just a hunch) and it's a less-intimidating gateway to Pynchon. Maybe that's part of the reason Pynchon felt it was a failure.

Laura


-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 11, 2016 9:14 AM
>To: ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>Cc: "Pynchon-l at waste.org" <Pynchon-l at waste.org>
>Subject: Re: Mortality & Mercy in Vienna
>
>Yes, 'making things literary' all over the f*ing pages is its major
>fault, I agree. Symbolism and allusions out the wazoo squeezed
>almost breathlessly into a short story. My god, the eucharist! Not
>just "cool' but a "Lupesco cool'. Windigo psychosis. and clichés--a
>Modigliani neck, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed--he musta winced in 84.
>Overly patterned might be the lit crit generalization.
>
>Now here is where I am going to get more interesting for you all to
>argue with. Someone once said of a writer, maybe Shakespeare, that
>amidst his greatest density of meanings, he also let his plays
>'breathe'. Minor characters as alive as you or me, so to speak, all we
>learn somehow thematically relevant but not felt that way at first. Or
>mixing prose and poetry so artfully, or the in-between scenes--I love
>the Henrys and some comedies for this. In obviously dramatically
>heightened works---is Shakespeare an hysterical realist?; he sure
>ain't no social realist, as real as he can be--he allowed them to
>breathe, so to speak. This matters for the illusion of reality, was
>argued.
>
>(early P.S. so to speak: Bloom notes that Measure for Measure and
>Macbeth are the two plays he loves for their fullest intensities.
>Others, even Lear, the rich Midsummer Night, "breathe" more in the
>above respect)
>
>In prose fiction, the life around the Intensities matters, most seem
>to say. Because we feel it as we read. The setting up of effects, of
>climaxes. Backstories and unpredictable elements of character and plot
>that add some kind of psychic depth (at least).
>
>I remember reading on and on in a long Dreiser story once, sure that
>it dragged until the cumulative effect (of emotional poverty) hit.
>And a Sebald novel hit me like a blow once with a sense of what has been lost.
>
>Jump cut: Why does TRP still think The Crying of Lot 49 fails? I
>"forgot all I had learned" about writing short stories. I have just
>read it again, I embrace it wholeheartedly (but as Kerry says in the
>Companion, it can be more, not less puzzling, upon each rereading. The
>last reading, here on the Plist, I felt we--i--had gotten to a very
>fine reading, "my' adjusted reading then. Now, this reading, not so
>same old same old me.
>
>But, here's a notion I have had about Crying for awhile so did
>feel--you want to talk projection, OK?--this reading as I read
>straight through (with, of course, a lot of internalized knowledge and
>opinion). It is loaded with symbolism; it can hit one, as it did my
>first baffled reading, as a game of Clue so to speak. Yes, the reality
>and meaning of Tristero and The Courier's Tragedy text for Oedipa is
>overt and the major part of the first bafflement but I don't mean
>that. Once you accept that, you still have all the curious things that
>happen. All the scenes full of 'clues' to sort out AND all of the
>curious things that are on the page between all the scenes. From the
>TV and the expectant revelation and the early tower allusions and on
>and on. All that density of allusion that scholars and all of us have
>been getting off on all these years. One might say, per the above,
>that the story hardly "breathes".
>
>I tentatively off this as why TRP might no longer like the story as we
>all do. Please discuss.
>With GR, although that book is really INTENSE and full of allusions,
>and overarching (groan) symbols, from Pirates' banana breakfast on, it
>also "breathes". He needed room to write at his best is what The
>Crying of Lot 49 shows.
>
>This reading of Lot 49 made me feel, did build up magnificently to,
>the theme of historical uncertainty, historical possibility, so to
>call it. That perfect waiting at the end after we have been made to
>feel that the old American society ways had this underflow working all
>along.  The US postal unity was gone. (terrif words on what little is
>now communicated by mail in Lot 49, which I will look up for anyone
>who wants reminded) In What all say the social narrowness of postwar
>America in the fifties was like. For me, Phoenix walking
>back-and-forth in the master's house in The Master as well as that job
>he flees from). And more standard histories and works and presented in
>Lot 49 as Oedipa's buried Young Republican suburban girl life.
> I watched Don Siegel's movie of that parable of the fifties, The
>Invasion of the Body Snatchers last eve, wherein full humanity is
>being lost. The narrowing of feeling and thinking and everything that
>matters. So fine.
>I seemed to notice for the first time that the end of the Holy Roman
>Empire is in the Lot 49 story!
>
>The end of Lot 49 is the revelation of possible opening out of
>society, of life in that society.
>Anyway, so it unfolds today for me.
>
>
>
>On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 5:39 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I do know about it ;-)
>> Young P is trying to make things literary by alluding to FWA and the
>> Wasteland, here, and in The Small Rain, and is, though he obviously doesn't
>> know it, as with his use of Shakespeare, working with symbolisms, of death,
>> that, as he tells us in the SL Introduction, he doesn't have a mature
>> apprehension of.
>>
>>
>> On Monday, January 11, 2016, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> John – thanks for the Tanner!
>>>
>>> Too much rain? I don't know about that. The rain is outside, and once
>>> Siegel is inside only mentioned once more, that it has dwindled to a light
>>> mist. I cannot see an effort to use rain brillantly like Hemingway or Eliot.
>>> Perhaps it adds to the claustrophobic setting.
>>>
>>> The allusion to Measure for Measure contains more than saying "he's one of
>>> the greats". Joyce?
>>>
>>> 2016-01-11 2:35 GMT+01:00 Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>> " too much rain" is a great way to put it. That's the immaturity as a
>>>> writer.
>>>> But, just to say: the smart-ass tone comes back in works that work, I
>>>> would say, don't you think.
>>>> Smugness too, yes, esp for such a theme.
>>>> But, just to say, later works do expose the author's attitudes a lot. But
>>>> here his " attitude"
>>>> Is pretty damn bad---nihilistic attitudes must contain stuff as big as
>>>> WW2.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 8:08 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Very well put!
>>>>
>>>> On 11 Jan 2016 11:57 am, "ish mailian" <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The story suffers from all the weaknesses Pynchon points out in his SL
>>>>> Introduction to the shorts he re-published in that book. Like the Small
>>>>> Rain, this story suffers under the cloud of too much rain, rain that is
>>>>> supposed to do something that Hemingway or Eliot did brilliantly, but young
>>>>> P doesn't really know what those great authors did with the rain and so he
>>>>> doesn't even know how how to copy them. It's the smart ass tone that's most
>>>>> embarrassing and although P admits to his juvenile and proto-fascist
>>>>> attitudes toward Others, including women, this story, because like The Small
>>>>> Rain, features a narrative that is essentially the author, and exposes,
>>>>> without irony or distance the author's attitudes, his smugness and
>>>>> immaturity, is a good one to omit from the collection.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 7:30 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It feels like an undergrad story because the engagement with the
>>>>>> intertexts seems so superficial. "I've read Conrad and Joyce and
>>>>>> Shakespeare! They're the greats, right?" Later on he does really
>>>>>> complex and fascinating stuff with allusions and referents but he's
>>>>>> only just starting down that track, here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > One question is How much of the play and the line matters to the
>>>>>> > story. Mackin has reminded
>>>>>> > That TRP has said he only uses as little as he needs; Jochen points
>>>>>> > right to the major meaning of the line, used when the Duke turns over Vienna
>>>>>> > to Angelo.   DC is as corrupt as Vienna.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > MfM plot is different. In detail. Thematically?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > We 've got to account for the anti-religion, anti-Christian religion
>>>>>> > in this story. Pervades. Some Interpreters of MfM have spoken of
>>>>>> > Shakespeare's almost-sacrilegious anti-Christianity. all " Christian" values
>>>>>> > gone from Vienna. No Christian cultural values ala Eliot.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What about sex/love? Rachel doesn't show to the party. But they talk
>>>>>> > okay. The woman on the Ojibway's lap?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Nihilistic terrorism because God, all values, even native ones, gone,
>>>>>> > dead in the entropic wasteland--that party? Metaphorically speaking--ending
>>>>>> > in the shooting as complicit Siegel gets away?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Sent from my iPad
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:37 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Tanner:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> "The problem, in both works, is how do you - can you, can anyone? -
>>>>>> >> cure or heal a degenerate and, as it were, 'damned' society?...
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The possibility of any real healing and prophecy recurs throughout
>>>>>> >> Pynchon. More generally, the problem becomes nothing less than how
>>>>>> >> to
>>>>>> >> be in the contemporary world, particularly if it is as infernal as
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> Washington party implies. One way is to cultivate disengagement,
>>>>>> >> emotional immunity; keeping 'cool', to use a term deployed by
>>>>>> >> Pynchon.
>>>>>> >> But that, of course, can lead to paralysis and inhumanity. The other
>>>>>> >> extreme is to want to be a great healer and prophet, but that can
>>>>>> >> lead
>>>>>> >> to a different kind of inhumanity - and madness. Pynchon's work is
>>>>>> >> constantly seeking to discover something in between these two
>>>>>> >> extremes....
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Irving Siegel is not just an example of a failed healer, a false
>>>>>> >> prophet. He is both a product and a representative of a society that
>>>>>> >> has accepted - indeed, eagerly embraced - 'mortality' on an
>>>>>> >> ever-increasing scale, and has forgotten the 'mercy'."
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I can see why Pynchon might not have wanted to include M&M in Slow
>>>>>> >> Learner. Casting the native American as a murderous cannibal is
>>>>>> >> lame,
>>>>>> >> and the "kill 'em all" sentiment underriding the narrative is a
>>>>>> >> cop-out for the Pynchon who connects one's literary approach to
>>>>>> >> death
>>>>>> >> as a marker of maturity (and in whose works characters die very,
>>>>>> >> very
>>>>>> >> infrequently).
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> yes, very worryingly claustrophobic.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I have been trying to write something that says other than your
>>>>>> >>> other
>>>>>> >>> critical voice. My mind stops there, except to think it can't mean
>>>>>> >>> that, can it? I might suggest it shows the nihilism of said
>>>>>> >>> liberalism, and of native American revenge (justice) as well?
>>>>>> >>> The complicity of them, of the native and the liberal bureaucrat.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I want to reread Measure for Measure before saying more. It IS
>>>>>> >>> claustrophobic and even the resolution contains bad shit.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I have both Tanner books but still in boxes since recent move.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Jochen Stremmel
>>>>>> >>>> <jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>> Significantly, Tony Tanner begins his preface for Measure for
>>>>>> >>>> Measure with
>>>>>> >>>> the sentence: "This is a worryingly claustrophobic play." Is that
>>>>>> >>>> not true
>>>>>> >>>> for Pynchon's short story as well? He then muses about the word
>>>>>> >>>> "circummured" that Shakespeare invented for this play and never
>>>>>> >>>> used again.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Perhaps somebody who reads this post has Tanner's book about
>>>>>> >>>> Pynchon at
>>>>>> >>>> hand: Apparently he deals on the pages 26-29 with M&M in Vienna.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Meanwhile here's another critical voice:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> "Any political critique of Pynchon should begin there: the
>>>>>> >>>> shrugging off of
>>>>>> >>>> murder. ... The poignancy of 'Mortality and mercy in Vienna' is
>>>>>> >>>> revealed in
>>>>>> >>>> that shrug, which is the real centre to the story. It indexes
>>>>>> >>>> perfectly an
>>>>>> >>>> inability and unwillingness to intervene in a world in which mercy
>>>>>> >>>> and
>>>>>> >>>> mortality appear inseparable. and terrorism a kind of unfathomable
>>>>>> >>>> justice.
>>>>>> >>>> The shrug shows up the fine limits of Pynchon's story at the same
>>>>>> >>>> time as
>>>>>> >>>> revealing the moment (so often repeated in recent American
>>>>>> >>>> history) when
>>>>>> >>>> America's confused liberalism emerges as scandalously
>>>>>> >>>> self-conscious
>>>>>> >>>> indifference."
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Terrorism a kind of unfathomable justice, indeed.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> 2016-01-09 9:22 GMT+01:00 Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> You said that now at lest twice, David. The high schooler who can
>>>>>> >>>>> put out
>>>>>> >>>>> sth like Mortality and Mercy would have a bright future as a
>>>>>> >>>>> writer, I
>>>>>> >>>>> think. And I don't think it has much morality. I think it's
>>>>>> >>>>> better than
>>>>>> >>>>> Entropy, that one is really charged with symbols. You all know
>>>>>> >>>>> the scene
>>>>>> >>>>> where the parting Duke delegates his power to Angelo with those
>>>>>> >>>>> words, it's
>>>>>> >>>>> the first. And Siegel is no hypocrite – what he does, given the
>>>>>> >>>>> choice
>>>>>> >>>>> between M&M, is quite cool, don't you think.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> What I thought after Slow Learner came out: that P didn't
>>>>>> >>>>> republish that
>>>>>> >>>>> short story because he didn't like to see that name again,
>>>>>> >>>>> associated with
>>>>>> >>>>> his own, the name of that asshole who broke the silence about
>>>>>> >>>>> him.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> 2016-01-09 2:00 GMT+01:00 David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>:
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> Too much morality for my taste, and so clunky to boot!  This
>>>>>> >>>>>> feels like
>>>>>> >>>>>> it was written by a high schooler.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, January 8, 2016, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> The more I 'analyze' this story, the more problematic it is to
>>>>>> >>>>>>> me.
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some over the top
>>>>>> >>>>>>> symbols and allusions and symbolic motivation I don't think I
>>>>>> >>>>>>> get.....
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, the motivation does not seem 'earned', right?....but wha
>>>>>> >>>>>>> is it?
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Siegel is Mercy?....the Ojibway is Mortality? .......I cannot
>>>>>> >>>>>>> think the influence of the play into this story.......so
>>>>>> >>>>>>> different..
>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---- Vienna is absolutely corrupt, known.......and I guess DC
>>>>>> >>>>>>> is
>>>>>> >>>>>>> supposed to be too.....
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Mark Kohut
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.pynchon.pomona.edu/uncollected/vienna.html
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Starts in rain. (see Small Rain and P on that symbolism
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> borrowed from
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hem)
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a party. like Entropy.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> music   like Entropy
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> girl named Rachel. Like V. Who doesn't show.(absent)
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Zeit [Time] as in V. a doctor here.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P-like crazy names.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> very overt Catholicism imagery. and a mother who refutes it at
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 19.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> what else?
>>>>>> >>>>>>> -
>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>> >>> -
>>>>>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>-
>Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l

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