BtZ42 the Oven chapter

[Mark Kohut]

There is some loving heterosexual sex in Gravity's Rainbow, we know where.
That sex is not
satirized, is not treated ironically, is presented as something good and
real in GR
but doomed. To the War. To the Established order of marriage.

Then there are ALL (?) the other sex scenes. Irreal, usually beyond
'hysterical realism' even,
the Lolita trope of Powerful men wanting their too-young 'girls'; Girls who
are perforce dominated
by those men (unlike the adult women in love).  A book length metaphor, no?

Then there are the other 'perverse' sex scenes. Still irreal, so beyond
even hysterical realism that they
are mostly semi-allegorical, I suggest. In symbolic form, as Ken Burke is
always saying, they contain 'messages' --whoa readers, --DEFINED as
Pynchon's vision within GR. I suggest again.

Like Brigadier Pudding's 'experience', for one example. What did we decide
are some meanings of THAT?

I think the coupling homosexuals in this chapter are used like that. (sub
argument: I think it is at least arguable
that P did believe (for the early fictions) that homosexual sex was
'unnatural'. As his Catholic upbringing is
always saying. And with some overt signs that 'natural' is a Good in his
vision and 'unnatural' bad, maybe this
also fits?)

I think P here has embodied-- by writing it out to the limit, the line
"we're fucked'. The "insight' that
the evil of Gottfried--Blicero contains the men in power fucking with
themselves metaphorically. As has
sorta been said about men in power in many historical circumstances,
colloquially. Men bringing
themselves off. Men in a circle jerk. Men in the America I still live in,
joking about 'bending over' when they lose
(in business, in a sports situation). men who joke about "fucking' other
men.
In the satiric "perversity' of GR, in which Pynchon uses fairtytales and
other "myths' to embody deeper,overarching
non-linear truths, I think he is sorta working Ovid-like here, in some
sense: he spins off a sexual mythology full of
resonances. Leda and the Swam-like in a Yeatsian way actually; or, from my
recent discovery of likely influences,
in scenes of interpersonal sex signifying, yes,  [JT] deeper psychic truths
that hold for many, for a society.

Men in GR without the innocent naturalness of a Katje (before her
mirroring). Where "Make Love, Not War" only works
when "the feminine" is involved. When the WarState has no Venus in
it...........


On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> In GR homosexuality serves as a signifier of degradation of spirit. The
> focus is on extremes of submission and dominance as though that were
> defining attributes of same gender male love. This  oversimplification has
> obviously changed by the tme he writes ATD. In V one could easily see
> implications of mysogyny.  It seems by the later writing gays and women can
> be heroic or they can be criminal jerks.  Gender or Sexual preference is no
> longer the same kind of indicator.
>
> > On Jun 21, 2016, at 8:00 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, his take on gays back then was badly flawed. So what? He ain't
> perfect, then nor now. Who is?
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Tuesday, June 21, 2016, Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Copying and pasting Mark's question in case anybody didn't make it to
> the bottom of his message. I don't necessarily think the answer to the
> enveloping question is yes, but I think it's important to think with
> clarity, caution, courage about what the answer might be.
> >
> > MK: What's with TRP and gays? Does this 'attitude'--is it part of his
> vision and how?---date (and weaken)
> > GR?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 6:07 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > What's with TRP and gays? Does this 'attitude'--is it part of his
> vision and how?---date (and weaken)
> > > GR?
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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