A point-by-point breakdown of the first half of that book I was telling you about.

Tue Mar 8 04:03:31 CST 2016

The overarching conspiracy theorizing historian who wrote Tragedy and Hope.
Originally 1966. Who claimed to be in touch
with members of the innermost circle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> The interest in this is a bit surprising considering the general aversion
> on the list to conspiracy theories, though admittedly not by all p-listers.
> Am I wrong in wondering if that aversion is less settled than it seemed.  I
> knew nothing of this book until this week’s mention here; but just started
> reading the introduction via Monte’s reference, and find it interesting
> that Oglesby was unhindered by cultural restraint in talking about
> conspiracies:
>
>    "This book proposes to show that Dallas and Watergate are intrinsically
> linked conspiracies in a hidden drama of coup and countercoup     which
> represents the life of an inner oligarchic power sphere, and "invisible
> government," capable of any act in the pursuit of its objectives, that sets
> itself above the law and beyond the moral rule: a clandestine American
> state, perhaps an embryonic police state.”
>
> I am just started but does he connect the Bretton Woods conference to the
> Yankees?
> > On Mar 7, 2016, at 4:27 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Also online for some years at
> https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?9223-The-Yankee-and-Cowboy-War#.Vt3xjDgrKhc
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not self-published. Real publisher. Usually OP now means a rights
> problem. Whoever owns the rights is in dispute or is saying No.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't quite follow all of this, maybe because I don't know all of the
> backstory. I'm deep into the book now, and it is fascinating, as gripping
> as any thriller. Not being in the publishing industry, I wanted to ask if
> the reason it's out of print is possibly because it needs a lot of work?
> Lots of typos and maybe some editing, as well. Has the feel of being
> self-published...
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 5:45 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Oglesby
> >
> > Jerky throws us a VERY anarchic curve ball. Looking to refresh myself
> and learn more
> > about Carl Oglesby, I go to wikipedia. Then it gets interesting.
> >
> > Notice that Kirkpatrick Sale, TRP's old buddy is quoted about Carl's
> famous anti-
> > war speech in late November 1965. Means he was there. We know TRP later
> > has a letter about not attending another one but one wonders if he was
> at this one.
> > Close to Sales then, publishing recently in mainstream stuff--SEPost and
> > NYTimes Mag soon after because Sales. And writing and publishing Lot 49.
> >
> > But even more interesting to me. Look at the way Carl's blend of
> political ideas
> > differs from standard SDS, new Left thinking. (He was to be driven out
> of a
> > leadership position because he would not track standard Marxist--Leninist
> > Left notions, this sez.) ...Now, a PS first: who else's social critiques
> as we pick
> > them out in our reading aren't standard Marxist?-- as we've said here.
> > (This is only associative non-logic I know but keep following the
> bouncing ball).
> >
> > Speculate with me more: as outlined here, Carl's eclectic mix of ideas--
> > might remind of emblematic scenes from Lot 49??...the Young Americans
> for Freedom,
> > Oedipa's present; libertarianism = cousin of anarchism in that work; the
> scene
> > about having one's ideas corporatized in Lot 49; Carl's strong
> anti-bureaucracy strain,--
> > (Heavy in GR, of course) The John Birch Society nod in Lot 49-as nod to
> freedom.
> > And more.
> >  "in a strong sense, the Old Right and the New Left are morally and
> politically coordinate":[5]
> > I suggest there is OLD RIGHT in Lot 49 under political lensing.
> >
> > And remember decades later in the Slow Learner introduction how TRP said
> the New Left
> > failed to connect with real worker's concerns so failed.
> >
> > Bet they all thought it out together, separately, TRP and Kirkpatrick
> closest thinking partners
> > then....
> >
> > Why is this book OP?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > KONSPIRACY KLASSICS CORNER!
> > THE YANKEE AND COWBOY WAR
> > The Astonishing Link between the JFK Assassination and the deposing of
> Nixon
> > Conspiracies from Dallas to Watergate and Beyond
> > by Carl Oglesby
> >
> > A few years back, a friend loaned me his copy of Carl Oglesby's The
> Yankee and Cowboy War, and after reading it I was stunned that I had
> previously neither read it nor even heard about it. I found it both moving
> and profoundly impressive. In his masterful dissection of the mid-70's
> American political milieu, Oglesby gives us nothing less than an absolutely
> convincing operating model of the forces clashing behind the scenes in
> post-World War II America, as well as a detailed diagnosis of exactly where
> and why things went terribly wrong. He presents valuable ideas that have
> found their way into the works of later authors, most notably Sidney
> Blumenthal, whose 1986 best-seller The Rise of the Counter-Establishment
> reads almost like a sequel.
> >
> > I believe The Yankee Cowboy War is essential reading for anyone
> searching for honest answers about the origins of our current condition.
> Unfortunately, the book is long out of print. I also understand that most
> of you reading this are busy people who don't have time to read every
> worthy book that there is to read. Therefore, I have decided to use this
> space to publish my "reading notes", taken during my second reading, so
> that interested parties can get the gist of the book's main theses, the
> numerous topics it covers, as well as the individuals and events discussed
> in it.
> >
> > I will be posting these reading notes periodically over the next few
> days. Obviously, this is a poor substitute for reading the book, itself,
> but it's a decent primer, and for the researcher in a hurry, it should do
> in a pinch. Watch for further installments, coming soon!
> >
> > PART ONE: THE CLANDESTINE ELITES
> >
> > · Watergate and the JFK assassination were not isolated incidents, but
> linked parts of a secret war between two American Elites: the Yankees
> (Eastern Establishment) and the Cowboys (Sunbelt, New Money,
> Counter-Establishment).
> >
> > · A hidden drama of coup and counter-coup, intrinsically linked
> conspiracies, inner oligarchic power sphere, invisible gov’t, above the
> law, beyond moral rule… a clandestine American state, embryonic police
> state.
> >
> >
> > · Operation Garden Plot, COINTELPRO, Operation Chaos.
> >
> > · CIA contracting ITT to oust Allende in Chile is an example of
> ruthlessness, just like crimes and cover-up at Dealy Plaza and the
> Watergate.
> >
> > · What are the origins of these internal government divisions?
> >
> > 1. CIA intel division vs. CIA operational division.
> > 2. Pentagon vs. FBI
> > 3. CIA vs. Pentagon
> > 4. CIA vs. FBI
> > 5. POTUS and all of the above
> >
> > · Destabilization of the post-Reconstruction unity, which, in turn, was
> made stronger by FDR in the WWII period (post-war consensus). 60’s, 70’s
> tumult.
> >
> > · The intensification of clandestine, illicit measures against racial
> and anti-war dissent coincided with the use of these methods within the
> state as post-war consensus failed.
> >
> > · Dallas/Watergate: breakdown of the incumbent national coalition…
> Greater Northeast powers with the greater Southwest powers, the post-Civil
> War, post-Reconstruction coalition, the New Deal, the Yankees and Cowboys.
> >
> > · Cold War tensions between two separate and distinct and contradictory
> domains of World Historical Truth: Northeast “détente” and Southwest
> “militarism”.
> >
> > · In Europe, we could evidently live with communism, whereas in the
> Third World, we evidently could not. “Spheres of “détente and violence”… an
> untenable paradox.
> >
> > · When it became clear that the USA couldn’t win militarily in the Third
> World without risking war in the North Atlantic, consensus dissolved.
> >
> > · Dallas, Nov 22, was an elite power collision, both sensed and real.
> >
> > · Dichotomous Disunity: The Southwest was pro-escalation, on balance,
> Frontierist, taking the China-lobby position.
> >
> > · Dichotomous Disunity: The Northeast was pro-pullback, on balance,
> Atlanticist, CFR, NATO-conscious position.
> >
> > · YANKEES:
> > 1. David Rockefeller
> > 2. Ivy League
> > 3. Exclusive clubs of Manhattan, Boston and Georgetown
> > 4. CFR, Round Table
> > 5. Eleanor Roosevelt
> > 6. The Dulles Brothers
> > 7. Massive Retaliation Doctrine
> > 8. The Kennedys
> >
> > · COWBOYS:
> > 1. Howard Hughes
> > 2. NFL
> > 3. Exclusive clubs of New Orleans, Dallas and Orange County (both sides)
> > 4. LBJ
> > 5. Conally and Hunt
> > 6. Bay of Pigs team
> > 7. Nixon
> >
> > · The persistence of Civil War splits in the current situation.
> >
> > · Carroll Quigley had already talked of these themes before Oglesby in
> his Tragedy and Hope.
> >
> > · Disintegration of Wall Street influence as the Southwest and Far West
> influence increase, commensurate with a dissolving of the Middle Class and
> a rise in bourgeoisie.
> >
> > · Northeast Establishment: Semi-aristocratic.
> >
> > · Southwest Counter-Establishment: Petit Bourgeois.
> >
> > · Southwestern money was dependent on government investment: oil,
> military, aviation, space, natural resources. This is a paradox.
> >
> > · Oglesby argues that the Atlanticist / Frontierist split is primal, and
> that it runs under everything… 1960.
> >
> > · YANKEE:
> > 1. Global Scope
> > 2. At home in the Great World
> > 3. Regards it as a whole, in context
> > 4. Good World Order = Relations with allies
> > 5. Relations with Western Democracies
> > 6. USA seen as a continuation of Europe’s culture
> > 7. Europe as key world theater
> > 8. Fate of USA linked with Europe
> > 9. White cultural destiny transcending boundaries of nation
> > 10. The West = One World
> > 11. Monopolists who broke faith with the Vietnam project because of the
> high probability of failure
> > 12. Monopolist East Coast Establishment
> >
> > · COWBOY:
> > 1. Ties to Europe NOT obvious
> > 2. Old World vs. New World
> > 3. Rejects Atlanticism in favor of Frontierism
> > 4. Expanding wilderness frontier and “Pacific strategy”
> > 5. Cowboy entrepreneurs fought to keep faith alive because of the
> necessity of success
> > 6. Tycoon (Western)
> > 7. They supported Johnson and Nixon all the way towards a final military
> solution
> > 8. “Only the strong survive”
> >
> > · What were the roots of the union in the first place? The frontier
> which allowed for the continued emergence of  entrepreneurs long after the
> establishment of the first monopolies.
> >
> > · Marx never studied states that had so much frontier.
> >
> > · The frontier was a reprieve for democracy… and capitalism! All it took
> was genocide.
> >
> > · Energies of expansion took two centuries… finally taking Alaska and
> Hawaii. We have no way of knowing how important this expansionism was in
> keeping the natural American Cowboy/Yankee divide under control.
> >
> > · The success of various Asian revolutionary movements proved a
> perplexing dilemma to the USA. With Asians successfully defending
> themselves as self-modernizing, post-colonial entities against American
> influence, America had run out of frontier.
> >
> > · To comprehend the assassination of JFK (as with Lincoln) is to
> understand a basic event in modern government. It’s a necessity to
> understand… an “absolute pre-condition” to self-government, the first step
> towards the restoration of a legitimate state.
> >
> > · Today’s frontier is the fact that there is no more frontier.
> >
> > PART TWO COMING SOON!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > www.innergroovemusic.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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